Stephen Grocott Testimony

Discussion in 'Science' started by Gup20, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20
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    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/Area/isd/grocott.asp
    Stephen Grocott, inorganic chemistry
    (First published in: In Six Days Science and origins - testimony #16)
    Edited by John F. Ashton

    Dr. Grocott is general manager, Research and Development, Southern Pacific Petroleum. He holds a B.S. (Hons) in chemistry from the University of Western Australia and a Ph.D. in organometallic chemistry from the University of Western Australia. Dr. Grocott has worked in the field of mineral processing research for 17 years, holds 4 patents and has published about 30 research papers. He is an elected fellow of the Royal Australian Chemical Institute.

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    I am a practicing scientist. Why do I believe in the supposedly thoroughly disproved, simpleton’s story given in the Genesis account of creation? Why would I want to risk the criticism, alienation and mirth of my peers in industry, universities and professional societies?

    The ultimate answer is that I am a Christian, but perhaps that is the subject of another essay. Instead, let me answer the following question from a purely scientific viewpoint, “Why do I as a practicing scientist believe in a 6-day creation, a young earth, and a global flood as described in a literal reading of Genesis?” I’ll call this view the Creationist View and I’ll call the main alternative view held by most scientists the Evolutionary View.

    Now before I answer this question, let me tell you that as a scientist, I have no problems whatsoever in such a belief (the Creationist View). Nor have I encountered in my work anyone who has been able to counter such arguments with science. Furthermore, I enjoy discussing this subject with other evolution-believing scientists. Why? Because there are few substantive counters to a creationist belief but innumerable counters to evolutionary belief.

    Anyway, on to the answer. There are so many “science-based” reasons for belief in creation that I will only touch upon a few that intellectually appeal to me.

    What is science?
    The first place to start is with a definition of science. Many exist, but most of them come down to something like, “If something is scientific, it is observable and testable (i.e., able to be repeated).”

    Now it might surprise readers without a scientific background to hear me say that very few scientists have any real idea what science is. However, if you are a scientist you will probably acknowledge the truth of this seemingly nonsensical statement. In my undergraduate studies and postgraduate research, I can’t ever recall anyone telling me what science is (and isn’t!), showing me what it is, or providing me with an explanation of how it operates. If you are studying science or working with scientists and you doubt me, I challenge you to ask them for a definition of what is “scientific.” After a pause, most of them would not be able to give an answer much deeper than “It is what scientists do.”

    As an undergraduate, I was taught to remember, not to think. Sure, I was given tools which I could use to think, but I wasn’t actually taught to think. Then, as a Ph.D. researcher I worked in a very narrow field (as do all Ph.D. researchers), and so the breadth of a question like “What is the definition of scientific?” was absolutely irrelevant to me. Upon graduation and working as a research scientist for 17 years and as a leader of other scientists, the question has never arisen, nor apparently needed to have been asked. My point is that most scientists don’t really know what is or isn’t scientific, because it rarely affects what they do.

    Why make a big deal of this? The reason is because creation and evolution are actually both outside the realms of science and, to know this, you need to know what science is—and as we have seen, most scientists don’t.

    Neither “process” is currently observable, testable or repeatable. Please note that when speaking of evolution, I am talking of the appearance of new (not rearranged) genetic information leading to greater and greater complexity of genetic information. I am also talking about the appearance of life starting from inanimate chemicals. When talking about evolution, I am not speaking of natural selection, which leads to a reduction in genetic information in those species. Creationists, of course, have not the slightest problem with natural selection. After all, it has been practiced by farmers for centuries in their breeding of plants and animals through selecting preferred offspring and mating or propagating these. Anyway, the theory of natural selection was described by creation-believing scientists long before Darwin boarded the Beagle.

    Evolution needs increasing complexity, increasing information. We don’t see it occurring today and no one was there to observe it in the past. Evolutionists counter by saying that it is too slow to observe. Even if this were true, it still means that evolution is nonscientific because it is not observable or testable. Similarly, creation is not scientific. Obviously we don’t see it occurring today and only God was there to see it in the past (assuming that one believes in a Creator God).

    Summary. Given that creation and evolution are both outside the realms of science, why should I, as a scientist, have problems with belief in creation while really being “scientific”? I don’t. This is not to say that many of the implications of creation and evolution can’t be scientifically evaluated. They can, but neither belief can be proven. Nonetheless, as a scientist, after thoroughly studying this subject, I have been left feeling very satisfied with the scientific legitimacy of creation, and very uncomfortable with the leaps of faith required by many of my colleagues in order to believe in evolution.

    Origin of life
    If one believes in evolution, then one has to also account for the origin of life—the very first step. Without this, the whole subject of evolution hangs on nothing.

    Now this is a subject about which I have read much. And the weight of evidence against the spontaneous origin of life on earth is, in my opinion, overwhelming. One can make some basic calculations about the chemical equilibria of molecules essential to life. These calculations show that the formation of biochemically necessary molecules at even minuscule concentrations is highly unfavorable. Furthermore, the assembly of these molecules into more complex biochemical precursors such as proteins, polysaccharides, nucleic acids or cell walls is beyond vanishingly small and is, in fact, statistically “impossible.” The invocation of influences such as the catalytic effect of minerals, concentration of precursors in evaporating ponds, occurrence below ground, etc. is fiction of the highest order. Theories such as these are usually sought because the hypothesizing scientist starts with the premise that life evolved from nonlife and, therefore, at some time in the past, lifeless simple molecules climbed Mount Impossible and multiplied.

    Suppose that you could go back in your time machine to a time when, according to evolutionists, a lifeless world existed. Assume that you have taken with you an ocean full of organic precursors of life. What would happen to them? They would all decompose to simpler and simpler molecules and mostly would end up as lifeless common inorganic substances. Sterilize a frog and put it in a sterile blender—buzzzz. Seal up the mixture in a sterile container and leave it as long as you want. You won’t get life, despite the fact that you started with the best possible mixture of so-called precursors to life. Repeat the experiment a million times in the sun, in the dark; with oxygen, without; with clay, without; with UV, without. It won’t make any difference. Thermodynamics clearly states that the mixture will decompose to simpler, lower energy, less information-containing molecules.

    The complexity of the simplest imaginable living organism is mind-boggling. You need to have the cell wall, the energy system, a system of self-repair, a reproduction system, and means for taking in “food” and expelling “waste,” a means for interpreting the complex genetic code and replicating it, etc., etc. The combined telecommunication systems of the world are far less complex, and yet no one believes they arose by chance.

    Summary. I am afraid that as a scientist I simply cannot say strongly enough that spontaneous origin of life is chemical nonsense and, therefore, I am left with no alternative but to believe that life was created.

    I could write many, many pages, adding more scientific arguments to this essay. I could write pages of references. Instead I will conclude with a few neat examples of consistency between a biblical worldview and the world in which we live.

    Neat science in the Bible
    Familial marriages: You’ve just fallen in love with a close relative. Why aren’t you allowed to marry and have children? We all know why. It is because of the high risk of genetic malformation in the children. This comes about because close relatives have very similar mutations in their genetic information. Therefore, when the mother’s and father’s DNA comes together in the child, when there is a mistake on one gene, it is much more likely to also be present on the spouse’s matching gene and lead to a baby with genetic defects. If the child is a product of “nonrelatives,” it is far more likely that a mistake on one gene will be paired with a correct gene, so that no abnormality will be manifest from that gene pair. Well, what has all this got to do with creation and evolution?

    Well, if in the beginning Adam and Eve were created perfect (no gene damage), then their children would also have been genetically almost perfect. Therefore, there were no problems with marriage between even brothers and sisters (guess where Cain got his wife). In fact, close marriages weren’t outlawed by God until the time of Moses—many hundreds of years later. This biblical account fits perfectly with observed accumulation of genetic mistakes over time (not improvement in the species). It explains why it was okay for Cain to marry a close relative and explains why God didn’t outlaw it until much later. Neat, heh?

    Sedimentary deposits: What do you see in the geology of the world? Massive sedimentary deposits. How did they form? Primarily through moving water. Belief that these formed through gradual erosion over millions of years does not fit with common sense or good science. The lateral extent of identical deposits (i.e., hundreds of kilometers of exactly the same rocks) implies catastrophism. So do features like the Grand Canyon (as more long-age geologists are starting to consider) and Ayers Rock, the largest single rock in the world, which is in Australia. The belief that it was a little bit of water over a long time (versus a lot of water over a little bit of time) is a faith-based position that is not supported by science, since it lies outside science. Was anyone there to record it and is it being repeated anywhere in the world today? On the contrary, modern-day catastrophes have been observed to cause massive local sedimentary deposits and other geological features. The Bible devotes three whole chapters to describing a worldwide flood with massive volcanism and tectonic activity. This fits very well with what we see.

    Fossils: How are fossils formed? In school I was told that fossilization occurs gradually over years. Nonsense! Let’s use our common sense. The recently dead (or living) organism must be rapidly buried in sediment that can harden and exclude oxygen. Again, just what you’d expect from a catastrophic worldwide flood. Fossilization and rapid formation of deep strata must occur rapidly. How else do you explain vertical fossilized trees (without roots!) or a dinosaur’s neck sticking through strata that are allegedly millions of years old? Tell me how the tree or dinosaur stayed alive for millions of years while the strata slowly formed around it. There are thousands of examples. A catastrophic flood fits the evidence quite well.

    Other reasons I feel comfortable with a belief in creation
    Apart from the scientific reasons given above, I have many, many other reasons I am intellectually more satisfied by my belief in creation. I’ve listed a short selection of these.

    Flood stories: How else do you simply explain the Flood stories shared by dozens of cultures around the world (stories recorded long before they were “contaminated” by Bible-carrying westerners)?

    Chinese pictograms: Ancient Chinese characters clearly and explicitly describe the Genesis creation and Flood accounts.

    Scientists changing their views: Although the scientists who believe in creation are decidedly in the minority, they are growing in number, as represented by scientist-members of creationist organizations around the world. Furthermore, increasing numbers of scientists who previously believed in evolution, while not becoming “creationists,” are discarding evolutionary viewpoints because they appear to be inconsistent with science. Non-Christian scientists now openly discuss evidence for:

    rapid (years, not millions of years) formation of coal, oil and natural gas

    catastrophic formation of geological features such as the Grand Canyon

    the apparent impossibility of the spontaneous formation of life from nonliving matter

    the growing evidence of the flaws in the theory of evolution

    The moral consequences of a belief in evolution: If no one created me, if I am just highly evolved pond scum, then surely I am my own authority. Who or what determines right or wrong? Isn’t it just relative? Isn’t it different for different people and changing as society evolves? If I can get away with something for my benefit (i.e., for my evolutionary advantage), if genes are “selfish” as I have been taught, then why not push beyond the limits? Why care about the poor people, the old, the maimed, the victims in other countries? Why not abort the babies in utero, why not kill the old and useless, why not kill the dumb ones and also the unemployed if we have enough machines to do the labor?

    If there are no absolutes (i.e., set by something outside man and not by man) then why not agree with one Australian philosopher (working at an Australian university) who proposes infanticide for excess children? How can you logically argue against this if man really does set his own rules? I know that at the moment this is against man’s rules but man’s rules change. Remember, a generation ago abortion and euthanasia were both illegal and taboo subjects.

    A belief in creation, on the other hand, implies that there are absolutes imposed on us by a Creator, to whom we are accountable. This fits well with what I feel and see.

    Emotions: We’ve all felt love. Is this an evolutionary artifact? Do I deeply love my children because I want my gene line to continue? Is that all there is to being a parent—survival of the species? Does my heart melt when I think of my wife simply because I want to propagate more and I want her to look after my little two-legged gene-bundles? When I witnessed the births of my two children, did I cry because those babies meant my gene line would continue? I guess that you can try to believe that I was (and that we all are) tricked by evolution.

    Alternatively, you can believe in a Creator who describes himself as love and says that He made us in His image, able to discern right from wrong, and able to love both Him and others for no logical reason other than that is the way we were made. Yes, you can believe that your life has no higher purpose than to propagate the species and then die, but in your heart and head, does that fit with the world you see?

    Conclusions
    Science is a wonderful thing. I enjoy it a great deal. As a scientist, I count myself lucky to be able to do science and to be good at it. And as a scientist, I have far more trouble trying to perform the mental gymnastics necessary to explain the world from an evolutionary, long-age viewpoint than I do from the young-earth, creationist viewpoint.

    Although neither viewpoint can be proven (since they are both outside science), the circumstantial evidence, the consistency of the evidence and the foundation upon the most fundamental laws of science lead me to be much more comfortable believing in creation.
     
  2. UTEOTW

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    Another long copy and paste.

    Any original ideas? Since you ignored my request that you answer the questions posed to you, based on your own intial assertions, about such things as the Grand Canyon, maybe you will take the challenge presented to you in the "Whales" thread and tell how to account for the observations if they are, as you assert, individually created species.

    I do not really expect an answer. YE has no answers.

    And this giand copy and paste, it boils down to a giant appeal to incredulty. Except for the parts he flat out gets wrong. But this kind of unoriginal copy and paste is not worth the time for a point by point refutation.
     
  3. Paul of Eugene

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    Indeed. He asserts science is about repeatablity. But he confuses repeating the past events with repeating the tests. It is the TESTS that are repeated, and when they give the same answer, we feel the conclusion is supported. Nobody will repeat the existance of George Washington as first president of the United States. But there will be more examination of contemporary writings that will be found to bear out that past event, and in this way, history is a science.

    After the devising of the theory of evolution, based by Darwin on observing the morphology of living and extinct animals, it became possible to examine the structure of molecules as well as limbs and bones; and the family trees derived by the gross structure of the bones and flesh was able to be compared to a family tree derived from the structure of the proteins

    question: Did the theory of evolution meet this test or not?

    Again, the ability to derive the exact genetic sequences from the DNA came along. This again opened up a new ability to test the theory of evolution.

    question: Did the theory of evolution meet this test or not?

    OK Now think of a fair test for evolution that evolution has NOT passed.

    No fair saying "I haven't found fossil x". Only one in a million animals ever get fossilized, only one in a hundred species ever get represented in the fossil record.

    And be sure not to tell a falsehood, such as asserting that new information has never been observed in the genes of living things.
     
  4. Gup20

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    I realized a while ago, UTEOTW, you have no actual interest in knowledge or truth - but come here solely for the sake of arguing. I have decided not to give you your fix, but present information and hope in the abcense of argument you take the time to THINK about what's said rather than regergitate the same evolutionary dogma. Critical thinking is more desired than debating prowess.

    Seeing as how your motto of "lets leave the Bible out of science" leaves very little room for a discussion of truth, I have become disinterested in engading you in discussion. Sorry.

    Too bad you didn't undertake any actual thought regarding the content. You simply looked through for points of refutation. As I said - you are more interested in arguing for arguing's sake than arriving at any sort of knowledge of truth.

    In the case of George Washington we have written history of eyewitness accounts. Unfortunately for the christian who professes a faith in the story of evolution, they have chosen to disregard the only written eyewitness account - Genesis 1-11. The Bible is the only written record from the one and only eye witness (God)... the only one who was actually there. By disbelieving it, you are basically questioning the credibility of that witness.

    Definitively, it has not met this test. First of all, the odds against the random chance processes in the theory of evolution are mathematical, chemical, and biological impossibilities. Secondly, the process of derriving new information from NOTHING has never been observed - evolution is predicated entirely on this happening millions upon millions of times easily. All evolution has is a handful of debateable examples - most of which have already been shown to be a result of an information loss. Finally - and most significantly - the Bible - which is ultimate truth and infallible - describes a much different account and contradicts entirely the possibility of evolution.

    Are there a lot of fossils that are dated to ... say ... 70,000 years ago? 40,000 years ago? 10,000 years ago? Compared to 'million/billion year old' fossils, how plentiful are the more recent fossils?

    Perhaps animals happened to die more readily in ways condusive to fossilization millions of years ago. Perhaps there were many more species back then who were unfit, and so died out more readily. Or - perhaps there was a global flood as the Bible says which made fossilization a snap. Perhaps the bulk of our fossils are a result of that one catastrophe.

    But lets look at this one sentence again - for it contains a world of evolutionary dogma which has been pulled over your eyes.

    First of all - where did this information come from? Who was here 1 million years ago to record these rates? What eyewitness can you produce? What written record can you point to for verification? In the abcense of such proof, we must speculate at the answer by interpreting what - the evidence we have in the present. That means that the 'tests', most likely, for this are done in the present. It means that the rates we see are the present rates. It's very possible, this figure did not even include ANY forensic information, but is based SOLELY on todays observed present rates. This is HARDLY science. This is storytelling based on science, but there is no actual science. And therein is the point of Dr. Grocott's testimony. That science is what is observable, evolution has never been observed, therefore it is not science, but faith (the evidence of things NOT SEEN - aka not observed). Uniformitarianism is like convicting a murderer for every murder that has ever happened because he was the most recent suspect to be convicted of murder. It's like using evidence from a completely different case that didn't involve a suspect whatsover to convict this suspect.


    We know from the Bible that indeed things operated quite differently in the past - For example people living for 900 years - or there being no rain and mist coming up from the ground. We know that there were no thorns or thistles before sin, yet we see fossils of such dated to millions of years (long before 'man'is said to have come upon the scene in evolutionary terms). We know that things changed, yet evolution has at it's heart a completely unprovable and unverifiable assumption - that everything has always happened at the rates we can observe today. Because evolution is based entirely upon unverifiable assumption (aka presupposition) it should be classified as FAITH and not SCIENCE.

    Evolution uses evidence from today to unlock the past, creation uses evidence from the past (The Bible's history) to unlock the past.
     
  5. UTEOTW

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    "I realized a while ago, UTEOTW, you have no actual interest in knowledge or truth - but come here solely for the sake of arguing."

    I seek the truth. When I started, I was diehard YE. Reading YE material cured me of that and convinced me that YE is an evil practice, devised by Satan, for the purpose of dividing believers, hurting the witness of believers and putting the focus on a false mechanical view of the creation rather than focusing on the important things God actually was trying to convey in Genesis.

    " I have decided not to give you your fix, but present information and hope in the abcense of argument you take the time to THINK about what's said rather than regergitate the same evolutionary dogma. Critical thinking is more desired than debating prowess."

    And since you have reduced most of your posts to massive copy and paste jobs, you seem to be trying to remain in the debate without showing either critical thinking or debating skills.

    "Too bad you didn't undertake any actual thought regarding the content. You simply looked through for points of refutation. As I said - you are more interested in arguing for arguing's sake than arriving at any sort of knowledge of truth. "

    NO.

    As I read I see a stream of falsehoods. It makes me angry that people choose to spew such misinformation and then have those without the information to judge the accuracy of the writing repeat it. Even spreading falsehoods that you believe to be true hurts our cause. All part of Satan's plan.

    "Definitively, it has not met this test. First of all, the odds against the random chance processes in the theory of evolution are mathematical, chemical, and biological impossibilities."

    Do you even read before responding?

    Paul made a point that science should be able to make predections of what types of future discoveries are expected. He showed that this is true for evolution. You did not even come close to responding to that claim.

    "Secondly, the process of derriving new information from NOTHING has never been observed - evolution is predicated entirely on this happening millions upon millions of times easily. All evolution has is a handful of debateable examples - most of which have already been shown to be a result of an information loss. "

    You can keep repeating this until the cows come home but it does not make it true.

    Processes such as duplication and mutation and exon shuffling have been observed generating new genes with new functions. This is a gain, not a loss, in information.

    "Or - perhaps there was a global flood as the Bible says which made fossilization a snap. Perhaps the bulk of our fossils are a result of that one catastrophe."

    You really need to read up a bit on taphonomy to see why you claim cannot be true. This is the study of what happens from the time of death forward. How the organism died. What happened to the remains after death. Was there scavenging. What process caused the fossilization. What changes happened to the fossil during its time in the ground. You will see that most fossils are incompatible with your scenario. Just take one example, the prevelance of scavenging marks on the bodies of animals. It is real hard to be scavenged by land animals, and different teeth from different creatures leave different marks, when you were drowned in a great flood.

    "Uniformitarianism is like convicting a murderer for every murder that has ever happened because he was the most recent suspect to be convicted of murder. It's like using evidence from a completely different case that didn't involve a suspect whatsover to convict this suspect."

    Another false analogy.

    A closer example would be reconstructing the crime scene using blood splatters under the assumption that the blood spattered in patterns in this case consistently with howit has been observed previously.

    Uniformitarianism only says that we are operating under the same set of physical laws now as we were in the past and that similar causes will leave similar effects at diverse points in time.

    You have never given us a reason to think that we ever operated under a different set of physical laws.
     
  6. Gup20

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    UTE lets see if we have any common ground here -

    Do you believe that the Bible is ultimate truth and infallible (in the original hebrew and greek anyway)?

    Do you believe there are human mistakes interjected into the scriptures (again in their original forms)?

    Do you believe that the Bible's history is inaccurate in any way?

    Do you believe that every word in the Bible is inspired by God?

    Do you believe that Jesus was actually a person?

    Do you believe that Jesus died and was physically resurrected?
     
  7. UTEOTW

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    I have answered these questions for you before. Funny how I answer your questions and then get accused of not doing so as you attempt to weasel out of providing your better interpretations by saying I have not answered.

    My answer would be best summed up by using Paul's words to Timothy.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

    "Do you believe that the Bible is ultimate truth and infallible (in the original hebrew and greek anyway)?

    Do you believe there are human mistakes interjected into the scriptures (again in their original forms)?

    Do you believe that the Bible's history is inaccurate in any way?

    Do you believe that every word in the Bible is inspired by God?
    "

    These sort of role into one.

    The words are inspired by God but written by man and not dictated by God.

    This means that in all areas of doctrine that the Word is infallible. But it also means that it reflects is human authorship.

    For example, in the Gospels you will clearly see different accounts of the same events. (This can be seen throughout the Bible but is best seen in the NT.) The human authorship is reflected in that different authors give slightly differeing accounts of the same events, just as you would expect from eyewtinesses trying to give their story years after the fact. Even though the accounts differ in their details, the important facts remain the same and thus are suitable for the purposes of the Word. Furthermore, I do not consider these discrepancies to be errors, merely a consequence of human authorship.

    By the same token, you can see the beliefs of the ancient Jews reflected in many of the OT writings. For instance, if you look up the geologic beliefs of the day, you will find that the folks livig in the Middle East believed in a flat earth, surrounded by a great sea (the waters of the deep), with a fixed dome above them containing the stars and with windows to let in the rain (the waters above) and through which the sun passed. This is clearly reflected in the OT writings but is not to be considered errors but only men writing what was their perspective. It does not change the spiritural meaning behind any of it.

    "Do you believe that Jesus was actually a person?"

    I am offended that you would even ask. Of course. Would I be here if I did not think so?

    "Do you believe that Jesus died and was physically resurrected?"

    Still offended.

    Of course.

    So all scripture is infallible when it comes to issues of doctrine and salvation. However, it also reflects the understandings of its human authors though this should not be considered errors or problems.
     
  8. Gup20

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    I guess that's a no.

    What possible reason could YOU have for believing in Jesus? What has given rise to this faith and belief? What is it based upon?

    What possible evidence do you have for this? What revelation from nature do you have confirming this?

    So give 3 new testament examples of this.
     
  9. UTEOTW

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    "I guess that's a no."

    Some of that YE logic there?

    I say it is infallible and quote Paul to support me and you take that as a "No." Curious.

    "What possible reason could YOU have for believing in Jesus? What has given rise to this faith and belief? What is it based upon?"

    Faith mostly, supported by eyewitness testimony. What else is there?

    "What possible evidence do you have for this? What revelation from nature do you have confirming this? "

    Why do I need support from nature for something I take on faith? You really seem confused here.

    "So give 3 new testament examples of this."

    First we need a fuller quote to show what I said. "For example, in the Gospels you will clearly see different accounts of the same events. (This can be seen throughout the Bible but is best seen in the NT.) The human authorship is reflected in that different authors give slightly differeing accounts of the same events, just as you would expect from eyewtinesses trying to give their story years after the fact."

    1. There are many details surrounding the crucifixion that differ. But let's take one. In John we see "The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre." In Matthew you see "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." And in Luke we see "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them...It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles." This is quite a variety in who was there. Would not happen if the words were written by the hand of God. But, when written under inspiration but under the effects of eyewitnesses years removed from the story and also told at least secondhand (none of the Gospels were written by these women at the tomb) if has the characteristics you would expect of a real story told by a human.

    2. The circumstances of the death of Judas. Did he hang himself or did he trip and cut himself open? Did he buy a field himself or did he return the money? The texts are different.

    3. Let's go obscure. In Matthew you see "And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented." But in Luke you find "And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant." In one version he sends people out and in another he goes out himself.
     

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