stigmata, Marian apparitions, etc.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Helen, Nov 13, 2002.

  1. Helen

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    Reading through some of Carson's latest contributions here, I got interested in a websearch regarding stigmata and apparitions. Three things became immediately apparent:

    1. The main sources outside of Catholic pages are occult webpages. Outside of the Catholic church, such things are considered part of the occult and treated that way.

    2. Messages associated with these various 'miracles' are often in contradiction to the Bible.

    3. That doesn't seem to bother the Roman Catholic Church, as they seem to consider, especially in the areas of Mary, the Bible to be much less than tradition and papal pronouncements.

    In the meantime, the marketing that is going on regarding some of these things seems to rival the Mormon Church as a money-making enterprise!
     
  2. blackbird

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    I've read over some of the things, too! Carson is an all right dude--could use him in our Southern Baptist circle--he's got a brain and a way to put it down on paper!!(or on this computer screen!)

    Its the church that rubs me the wrong way and their folks are duped into it deeper and deeper! The little lady Carson says will bleed some sort of holy oil out the palms of her hand--and on and on! Carson's school campus is well landscaped--but the church's mind as a whole needs "bushhoggin'!" I was out bush-clippin' some pasture my father-in-law let get out of hand--the weeds were as high as the exhaust stack of the tractor--and I was cuttin' through scrub trees 2-3 inches in diameter--I couldn't see beyond the radiator of that John Deere tractor--that's how thick the weeds were. The church can't see Jesus for the weeds its let growing in the theological fields!! Carson is just the right person to simply hop on that ole Spiritual John Deere and go to clippin'!! I pray that he will before he finishes school. But, I promise you, the minute that he leaves the Catholic church--us Southern Baptist want first shot at gettin' him-!!

    Your friend,
    Blackbird
     
  3. GraceSaves

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    Helen,

    Exactly why would a pagan or member of an occult claim to have the stigmata, the wounds of Christ, or receive message from Mary? That doesn't make any sense to me.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  4. donnA

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    A good topic Helen. I'd never thought of it before.
    It makes sense when the movies do it, to look just as christian as anything else looks christian,(they don't care if it's biblical or not) to confuse what christianity is all about, to draw attention and focus away from Jesus, and make religeous activitey seem alright as long as you can attach some christian names or words on them. Makes a lot of sense.
     
  5. CatholicConvert

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    I guess my questions are:

    1. Isn't the occult the falisification of the true? In other words, that the occult presents interactions in the spiritual realm, and is a false interaction, doesn't that mean that there is the possibility of true interaction?

    2. Since Christ Jesus has destroyed death and broken down the barrier between us and God, reconciling the world to Himself, why then could we not have fellowship with those who are in the spirit world? Is there a reason for this?

    3. Remember that St. Paul said that some had entertained angels unawares. That seems to fit right in with the type of spiritual experiences we are discussing right here. Or was St. Paul decieved also?

    4. Might I have a URL for a site which makes a distinct affirmation that Catholic and Orthodox spirituality in this are are demon related?

    5. Have you ever heard of the "Miracle of the Holy Fire" which takes place every Easter in Jerusalem? What do you think of this?

    Brother Ed
     
  6. Dualhunter

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this Patriarch of the Orthodox church, Orthodox (i.e. not submitting to the Pope).
     
  7. CatholicConvert

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    Correcto mundo, Duallie!!!! :D (Youse gits da prize!!!)

    Ahem...now. What do you think of the Holy Fire?

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  8. Dualhunter

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    You did notice this didn't you?

    "1. Light at the Holy Sepulchre, Great Miracle Given by God, Only to the Orthodox Church // The Christian Life. 1 January - 31 March 1999 (Vol. 42 / No. 1-3)"

    Once again, "not submitting to the pope, Orthodox", not Byzantine Catholic like you.
     
  9. Carson Weber

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    Hi Helen,

    Do you think that it is possible that Mary is genuinely appearing to visionaries today?

    Or, is this an impossibility to be disregarded a priori?

    God bless,

    Carson
     
  10. Helen

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    Mary is not appearing to anyone. The messages give the messenger away -- they are demonic appearances.

    You will notice that Catholic Convert is so confused about the issue that he somehow seems to think the Bible is not absolutely positive about forbidding contact with any spiritual beings other than God Himself.

    To you both, the occult is the occult is the occult and it is forbidden.

    It is forbidden for a reason: because we are so easily deceived.

    But then the demons who are playing around at being Mary know that...
     
  11. Carson Weber

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    Hi Helen,

    You wrote, "Mary is not appearing to anyone.

    Thank you for your honesty.

    It is difficult to discuss an issue with one who approaches the issue with an a priori presupposition (I prefer to use the term "prejudice"), and I will not discuss this matter any further with you for precisely this reason.

    You may be interested in perusing the messages of Our Lady of Medjugorje (I warn you, Mary speaks favorably of the Mass - I know, I know, *cringe* - if Mary advocates "the Mass", then the messages must be demonic!) -

    http://www.medjugorje.com/english/poruke.html

    "Pray with the heart and surrender yourselves to Jesus in prayer"

    "Look around you, dear children, and you will see how greatly sin has dominated the world. Pray, therefore, that Jesus conquers."

    "Open your hearts and surrender your life to Jesus so that He works through your hearts and strengthens you in faith."

    "Reflect on Jesus' Passion and in your life be united with Jesus!"

    "Let all the young people be an example to others by their life and let them witness to Jesus."

    It sounds like Satan is foolish for giving Christians ammunition against himself. I suppose the demons don't quite understand that Jesus is their enemy and that strenghening Christian faith in Jesus is not the best course of action when your goal is to drag souls into hell.

    You also wrote, "the Bible is not absolutely positive about forbidding contact with any spiritual beings"

    It's interesting that while Scripture is so "absolutely positive about forbidding contact with any spiritual beings", Jesus himself converses with Moses and Elijah upon the Mount of Transfiguration. *Bad Jesus.. bad!*

    It's also interesting that while the Scripture is "absolutely positive about forbidding contact with any spiritual beings," 1 John 4:1 instructs us to "not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God", which assumes that some spirits should be believed. *Bad John.. bad!*

    Bless you,

    Carson

    [ November 14, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  12. Carson Weber

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    Oh, Helen, I forgot to mention.. when I walked across the United States (from San Francisco to Toronto) this summer for the Pro-Life movement, we walked through Placerville and Shingle Springs; we actually stayed at the KOA there in Placerville - would you, by chance, happen to live around this area? It's beautiful country.
     
  13. Helen

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    Here's another view of the apparition at Medjugorje:
    http://www.rosesfromheaven.com/medjugorje.html

    And your ridiculous comment about the Transfiguration is not worth responding to. Jesus is God, remember?

    In the meantime, 1 John 4:1 is referring to what is impelling the heart of a man, as you will see if you finish the sentence!
    Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God BECAUSE MANY FALSE PROPHETS HAVE GONE OUT INTO THE WORLD. I urge other readers to please continue down to verse 6 where the two spirits are mentioned -- the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of falsehood -- those are the spirits referred to in verse 1. It has absolutely nothing to do with other 'spirits' at all.

    I do wish you would read and refer to the Bible in context, Carson.
     
  14. Helen

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    I'm one exit down in Shingle Springs.
     
  15. Carson Weber

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    Hi Helen,

    You wrote, "And your ridiculous comment about the Transfiguration is not worth responding to. Jesus is God, remember?"

    Yes, thank you for reminding me and for further bolstering the Biblical support I provided. It is precisely because Jesus is God that his actions speak with such great authority. Jesus is also man, by the way, and being so, he is our model whom we follow.

    Isn't that exciting? I walked right through your town. Wow. This is where we stayed: http://www.koa.com/where/ca/05429.htm

    Father Hilary, our Australian walk chaplain, even celebrated Mass there for us from a picnic table!

    Walking along US 50:

    [​IMG]

    Here's our group w/ Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, NE (one of the best bishops in the United States, IMHO) with Father Hilary on the right:

    [​IMG]

    Blessings,

    Carson

    [ November 14, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  16. Helen

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    Let me see, Peter was up there -- your 'first Pope', right? Don't find him talking to spirits later...

    In fact, his reaction was to fall to the ground terrified when he heard God's voice.

    In the meantime, Saul received death within 24 hours of attempting to contact the dead (1 Samuel 28).

    Carson, God/Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He does NOT contradict Himself. In that light, please consider the following:

    When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these tings is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
    Deut. 18:9-13

    When men tell you to consult the mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
    Isaiah 8:19-20

    You know there is more. I quoted it to you back on CARM. But you ignore it in favor of the occult practices of your church. I doubt very much you will ever change and that is a terrifying thought to me, but there are others reading this who need to know that the Catholic practice of praying to the dead and involving themselves in occult practices is strictly forbidden in the Bible.

    All your mocking to the contrary...

    P.S. Walking along highway 50 is illegal unless you are leaving a disabled car and going for the nearest exit or returning to said car or attending an accident.

    [ November 14, 2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  17. Abiyah

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    Carson --

    Who organized your Walk for Life? How far,
    from where to where did you walk? How much
    was raised? How were the funds used? Were
    there any protests or any who tried to prevent
    or reroute your walk?

    I have never joined in any actual walks or pub-
    lic protests for the right to life movement, but
    I sure did a lot of vocals to a pastor I once had
    who believed in abortion and demanded that I
    stop working for Minnesota Citizens Concerned
    for Life. (I did some writing and a lot of envelop-
    stuffing there.) He said that abortion was a
    "Catholic issue."

    I had an interesting experience with that pastor,
    by the way. He had invited me and a bunch of
    my peers to his home to celebrate my birthday,
    and someone brought up abortion. He started
    teling me how wrong I was to work against it,
    and I didn't know what to do, because it was his
    home, my party, and all of us were members of
    the congregation where he pastored.

    But I opened my mouth, and Scriptures I had
    never tried to memorize poured out--some
    were Scriptures I could not even remember
    reading, but they just flowed with no effort on
    my part. I was shocked! And I felt a little bit
    (I said a LITTLE bit) sorry for him. He just
    shut his mouth and walked away.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Helen --

    Re apparitions, I believe them about as much as
    I believe the "Jesus in the tortilla" someone
    once claimed they had.

    Phil Donohue, just before he retired c. 10 years
    ago, did a show on apparitions. I climbed up on
    our bed and did a rubbing of our ceiling in the
    old house, because in the plaster were the per-
    fect imprints of Piglet (from Winney the Pooh)
    and a turkey buzzard. I sent along a letter
    explaining them as my objects of worship.

    [ November 14, 2002, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  18. Helen

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    I climbed up on
    our bed and did a rubbing of our ceiling in the
    old house, because in the plaster were the per-
    fect imprints of Piglet (from Winney the Pooh)
    and a turkey buzzard. I sent along a letter
    explaining them as my objects of worship.


    You nut!

    When I was little and sick in bed, I remember staring at the texturing on the ceiling and looking for faces and figures. I remember finding Pinocchio, but I don't remember what else there was...

    Some friends have a lovely elephant in their tile on their family room floor. They never saw it until I pointed it out one day and now they can't avoid looking at it!

    Before they grew too much in the wrong direction, there were some trees in back of our yard that I could stare at on summer nights with the moon behind them and they were a giant rabbit.
     
  19. DHK

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    Take a look at this site:
    http://www.peace.mb.ca/00.Native/nlrnz07.htm

    There are plenty more like it. Lac Ste. Anne is not very far from where I live. Every yer the Catholics and the Native Peoples get together (ecumenically) and worship at this lake, believing that the lake has special powers to heal. If they get healed because of the water of the lake, it is not of God, and not of any particular quality that the water may have. I believe there is another force at work here, a force that is largely ignored by the Catholic Church and others.
    DHK
     
  20. blackbird

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    Hey, Carson!!

    Saw the pictures!! Hwy 50?? Through Helen's home town??---got to lookin' in the picture for your gas can--you wasn't out of gas back behind that big curve in the road behind you, was you??

    Sorry!! Just had to say that--its 6am here--I'm at my best sense of humor here this time of the day--come 11pm I'll still be at my best sense of humor!!

    How come you ain't talking with Helen about what she is writing?? Same reason you won't talk with me about being "Born-Again??" Are you saved, Carson??

    And about the Transfiguration--there are times in the Bible where little "Hints" of glory would come shinin' through--the scene was limited to Peter, James, and John only---but one day--one day--every eye shall see him(Mary's eye, too!) and every knee will bow(Mary's knee, too!) and every tongue will confess(Mary's tongue, too!) that Jesus Christ is Lord(stands alone and not along side and noone stands along side Him--no, not even His momma!) to the glory of His church!

    Last, Friend! Thanks for your walk for Pro-life!!

    Your friend,
    Blackbird
     

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