Strange Things the Holy Spirit Cannot Do….

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    It is amazing for me to hear those that sound the clarion call of a ‘Sovereign All Powerful God’ just to turn around and limit God when it is convenient for them to do so. Take the following recent example.

    Take the following remarks concerning this passage of Scripture: Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    As we all know, some translations omit the last half of the verse, setting forth that God did no actually state the last half of the verse but rather only stated, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.”

    I had made the comment that the Holy Spirit had witnessed to my heart the truth concerning God’s intended injection of the last half of Romans 8:1 which states, “who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.” This raised a fire storm of comments by DHK, and a few by Marcia, ranging from the personal attack of calling me “arrogant”, stating that in saying such I have presented an attitude of being “holier than thou because I have the Holy Spirit and you don’t” to telling me that to do such is against the rules of this forum. Again, all these comments by DHK, were laid at my feet for simply stating that the Spirit of God testifies clearly to my heart that the KJV’s rendering of this passage is indeed the correct rendering.

    My point in this thread is not to establish the truth of my personal conviction, for that remains in this world only between myself and my God, but rather to establish if in fact God can testify to ones heart the truth of His desire to convey truth to the heart of man, or if in fact God cannot testify to ones heart the truth of what He intended to be written. This thread is designed to establish whether or not God is indeed limited and cannot testify truth to ones heart concerning which of the numerous renderings is indeed the correct one or not, or if in fact He could do so if He so desires.

    I noticed that Marcia stepped out of the other discussion when I asked her directly concerning this question. I hope she will find the time to enlighten the list as to the truth of this matter as well as DHK and all others.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    So if I say that the Holy Spirit testifies to me that the last half of Romans 8:1 is not authentic, what would you say? Would you dare deny that the Holy Spirit can speak to me?

    You see, you are on the horns of a dilemma.

    If you say that the Holy Spirit cannot speak to me, then you are denying your whole premise that he spoke to you about this verse.

    If you say that he did speak to me truthfully, then you are wrong (or the Holy Spirit gave contradictory information).

    The point is that you could be wrong (and likely are on that point of Romans 8:1). Your methodology is flawed.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Now we are thinking. :thumbs: That is indeed a fair question. Absolutely the Holy Spirit can speak to you and to me, but can He say opposing things to each of us is the question. That is precisely why we have any difference of opinion as to spiritual things. Two individuals, believing they are following the leading of the Holy Spirit disagree as to what the Spirit is saying.



    HP: No, WE are on the horns of a dilemma.:thumbs: One of us, or possibly both of us, is wrong. In the case of Scripture it comes to faith. Do we have faith that God has safely preserved His Word to us in at least one form or another? I have to believe God has preserved His Word to us, so the question simply remains, which translation is right and which ones are in error? They all cannot be right for they say different things. Certainly actual words are important, but in translations we know that concepts are as well important. If a concept is simply excluded, such as is in the case of Romans 8:1 in some modern translations, it comes to a matter of did God or did not God instruct the author of Romans to add the last portion into the text? My question in the OP is can God, via the Holy Spirit grant to man the truth of the matter? If so, and we disagree, one of us is in error, and the other according to truth. Place your faith wherever you will but there is no place to straddle this fence. Either the rendering in the KJV is God’s word to man or the KJV is wrong and the NIV or some other is indeed correct. Is man left up to flipping a coin or guessing about the matter, or can the Holy Spirit be trusted to guide us into all truth, including the truth of this matter?
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    No "we" are not. I have no dilemma at all because I don't think the HOly Spirit communicated anything to either of us (or anyone else) specifically about a textual variant.

    Exactly, which is why you can't invoke the HOly Spirit.

    Yes he can, but will he do so directly? No.

    The evidence indicates that the KJV has added to the word of God. The concept contained in the last half is certainly true, but that is not the question. The evidence is fairly substantial that Rom 8:1 should not include the last half found in the KJV.

    That is not something however that the Holy Spirit will lead us in. The Scripture does not ascribe that type of activity to the Spirit.
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Did the Holy Spirit verbally inspire the writers that penned Scripture? Were those that decided on the Cannon of Scripture beside themselves in deception when they relied on the Holy Spirit to help them decide what should be and should not be part of the Cannon of Scripture? Can we trust their work or is the Apocrypha, and or any other books for that matter, just a matter of personal choice as to whether or not they are God’s Words to man?

    Who do you go to for your source of truth on the matter? Do you trust them if they admit to relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance? When did the guidance of the Holy Spirit stop? I thought that without Him we could do nothing, including understanding Scripture. Maybe we have hit on a reason so many false notions are afloat out there today.
    Quote:
    HP: My question in the OP is can God, via the Holy Spirit grant to man the truth of the matter?


    HP: Says who? OK God, Pastor Larry says that you cannot speak to me directly. That is something you simply cannot do. Somehow the Spirit does not testify to my heart that such remark as you make is even close to the truth. Why do you limit God as such? Is not your God Sovereign, or does He have to fit in the box you are making for Him?


    HP: The evidence in no wise indicates the KJV added to the Word of God. Thanks Larry, but I believe I will trust the Spirit on this one. Keep your evidence handy though. You will certainly need it as you stand before God explaining why you did not believe what he said in Romans 8:1 was in actuality really His Word.



    HP: You are simply mistaken Pastor. Scripture tells me that the Holy Spirit was given to guide me into all truth. Possibly you do not believe the word ‘all’ really means what it says? Is the Lord's hand shortened in revealing His truth concerning the Words He had penned to our heart and lives? I certainly do not believe so.

    What strange kind of activity would it be for God to reveal to His children the truth of Scripture? Somehow the Spirit of God testifies to my heart that is the direct effort God IS involved in, i.e., revealing the truth of His word to those that love Him.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

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    I understand Romans 8:1 very clear. This verse tell us that there is no judge or chasten on people, while they are NOW (currently) walking after the spirit. That means we must be filled with the Spirit daily in our lifetime. In Gal. 5:16 tells us, "This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, and ye shall NOT fulfil the lust of the flesh." This means that we are commanded to walk after the spirit, do not fill with flesh in our life. That means, we must walk in the light, do the right things and to obey God, to have holy life. Otherwise, if we continue in flesh by sinning life all the way to our death(physical), then we cannot enter eternal life with Christ-Gal. 5:21.

    When person is born again, became new man, therefore, put the old ways away. But, everyone of us, still have flesh in our body and soul. We all have spiritual warfare daily. We must increase spirit daily, to put flesh away throughout our life. Or, if we continue in flesh, we might lost the spiritual warfare, at the consequence, we would be end up in hell as we would fail to enter into the gate on the narrow road(Matt. 7:13-14).

    Enter into eternal life is not easy. It is hardship life, because we all have spiritual warfare daily. If we endure it all the way till our death(physical),or Lord comes, then flesh will finally release away from us, and would be finally victory or overcome them.

    Interesting, while I read Galatians chapter 5 recently, because many Christians always citied or quoted Gal. 5:22 about our fruits. I notice Gal. 5:5 says, "For we through the Spirit wait for 'the HOPE of righteousness by faith."

    This verses reminds me of Eph. 4:30- "the day of redemption", & Luke 21:28 of "your redemption draweth nigh". Which speaking our 'redemption' that, is our souls would be delivery at His coming that our souls and body would put on immortality and finally have eternal life(salvation).

    Also, "hope" of Gal. 5:5 is speak of eternal life -salvation. It reminds me of Titus 1:2; 2:13; and 3:7.

    Right now, we not yet posess "eternal life". It is salvation, that would come finally to arrive by at our death or Christ comes, unless if we endure it -Matt. 10:22; & 24:13. While we have faith and condifence that we can know that we have eternal life while we are continue walk in the light same time, without having doubt same time.

    IF we continue in flesh all the way throughout our life till death, then we would not have eternal life(saved)-Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13.

    Bible teaching us very clear that, we are commanded to walk in the spirit daily, so, we can have eternal life, or otherwise, if we don't walk in the spirit, then we cannot have eternal life. Bible teaches that our salvation is conditional, that we must endure it all the way throughout our lifetime till we die according Matt. 10:22 & 24:13.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. DHK

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    Why do you claim to be God? (omniscient).
    You take a verse out of its context, a verse written solely to the apostles speaking of the inspiration of Scripture, and apply it to yourself in an incredible way that makes you God--omniscient. Do you really think that you know ALL things? Or that God will lead you into ALL truth? Is that even a remote possibility? No, it isn't.

    It is not that all doesn't mean all. All does not apply to you.
    I believe in the omniscience of God; not in the omniscience of HP. Learn what the verse is teaching.
    God does reveal truth, but not all truth.
    "The secret things belong unto the Lord."
    He doesn't necessarily reveal to us the things that we would like Him to reveal to us. God is not our puppet, at our disposal, that we can command to fulfill our every wish like the mythical genie in the bottle. I feel sorry for you if that is how you view God. But that is not the God of the Bible.
    According to 1Cor.2:12, he illumines our heart via His Holy Spirit. He helps us to understand the Word that He has written. The Charismatics and the gnostics go farther than that and believe that God today reveals special knowledge over and above the revelation that God has given to us in the Bible. That is not so. There is no extra-Biblical revelation. If "the Spirit of God" testifies to your spirit something that is not according to the Word of God, then obviously that "spirit" was not God's Spirit. Your opinion is not God's Spirit. How can you claim that it is? Your entitled to your opinion, but don't come on here and claim that it is God's opinion and everyone else is wrong.

     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    DHK,

    Understand, God does not create us as robot. God gives us the choices. God's design was not to FORCE us as robot all the times. But, God's design by use Holy Spirit to comvict people to see the wrong times, and turn away from them, and to do the right things. Yet, Holy Spirit cannot force them to do the right things all the times, depend on indidvidual's decision and freewill what individual decides to do. Holy Spirit's job is to convict people to see wrong things, to make them learn something that they do not do the wrong things again, and to do the right things. If they do the right things, that would please God.

    Of course, we believe God is omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotent. God is always God. Yet God does not dicate over our minds as robot while without our decision are making or our moves in our freewill.

    For example, when God created Adam. God told him, he have freedom to eat any fruits trees on the Garden of Eden, whatsoever he wants, BUT He told him, do not eat THAT one tree which is Knowldge of good and evil. God did gave His authority to Adam what He gaves the rule to him while he is in Garden of Eden, God doesn't make Adam into robot. He gave Adam, -freedom, freewill, choice, and decision. God was not force Adam, for NOT to eat it. God allowed Adam to doing it. It was His purpose that He tested on Abraham, same as He is testing upon us today. God already know that Adam will fail it before creation. God doesn't fail. God allowed it to be happen in his purpose. God expects us that we are suppose to obey Him. He knows that not everyone would obey Him. He allows them to doing it. That is their choice to make decision. God never fail them, God never fail us. These are God's purpose.

    God's plan of salvation for the world, by offer His love toward that He sent His Son to earth, died on the cross, so, we can understand the gospel, then our responsiblity is to believe the gospel, and also to follow Christ, in order to have eternal life. God knows that most people will not have eternal life, because they refuse willing to believe the gospel, in their decision and choice. Do not blame on God that, millions or billions of people are in hell, blame on people for their decisons.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Pastor Larry, I, (GE) ask you, Does the Holy Spirit testifies to you that the last half of Romans 8:1 is not authentic?

    Then please tell me, if He does (as you say), why you say, He does?

    And then tell me, if these (supposed) reasons are the Holy Spirit testifying?

    Just asking ....
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    DPT:
    "Understand, God does not create us as robot. God gives us the choices. God's design was not to FORCE us as robot all the times."

    GE:
    These are the oldest tricks from the book.

    To make things easier: Give one example of "God gives us the choices" not giving us the choices?

    PS:
    And explain why you protest against being made God's robot?
     
    #10 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2009
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Yes.

    No one decided on a "cannon." It is a "canon" and it was formed or "decided on" by providence, not revelation.

    This is an invalid comparison.

    On the matter of what?

    Depends on what they say.

    It didn't. I think the point is that you don't grasp what the Bible teaches about the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    Correct, but how does that work? That is the question.

    I think your post is certainly demonstrating that.

    Larry didn't say that. God can, but he won't. Please take more care to read carefully (both my words and the Scripture) and understand what is being said.

    He has stopped giving direct revelation. God's direct revelation is through the Scripture.

    That doesn't concern me since the Spirit wouldn't testify to your heart anything about my remarks. Scripture is the source of truth, rather than your mind.

    I didn't. God has limited himself.

    Then you don't understand the evidence. Here is a brief rundown from Metzger's Textual Commentary. If you can explain this to us, then you will show some credibility to talk about the issue.

    At the close of the verse the later manuscripts introduce an interpolation from ver. 4 in two stages: μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν is read by A Db Ψ 81 629 2127 itdc vg syrp goth arm Speculum al, and the same clause followed by ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα is read by אc Dc K P 33 88 104 614 Byz Lect it61 syrh al. The shorter text, which makes the more general statement without the qualification that is appropriate enough at ver. 4, is strongly supported by early representatives of both the Alexandrian and the Western types of text (א* B C2 D* G 1739 itd*, g copsa, bo armmss al).​


     
    #11 Pastor Larry, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2009
  12. Pastor Larry

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    No, I don't say that. I was pointing out the absurdity of HP's claim. If I were to say that, he would have no answer except to admit that (1) the Holy Spirit is lying to one of us, or (2) he or I misunderstand the Spirit's teaching (but no way to determine which of us do). It is really an absurd untenable claim he makes.

    There is this pseudo-spirituality that uses the Holy Spirit as a trump card to justify all manner of things. I have heard people say that the Holy Spirit testified to them that they could commit adultery. HP wouldn't agree with that I am sure, but he has no reason not to because he has made the same type of claim.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: No, I would not by any means.


    HP: You are misrepresenting and testifying falsely about what I have said or believe. I have made no such claim that would even come close to the claim of the other you are referring to. Some example you set for truth as a Pastor.

    Just wondering if you believe as DHK that all men are liars?
     
  14. Steven2006

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    Personally, I would be wary of stating emphatically that a person could not have been personally convicted by the Holy Spirit as to the meaning of a verse. That said I don't think anyone who feels convicted of such can be dogmatic about it if someone else doesn't feel the same conviction.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Perhaps you aren't pay close enough attention here. I am talking about the type of claim that was made. And I am going off what you said in the OP.

    Compare the two claims:
    The Holy Spirit told me that Rom 8:1 in the KJV is the correct reading.
    The Holy Spirit told me that I could commit adultery.

    They are both the same kind of claim, a claim of special information from the Holy Spirit that cannot be gained from the Bible.
     
    #15 Pastor Larry, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2009
  16. Pastor Larry

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    I would too. That was wasn't the claim that was made here. The claim was not that the Holy Spirit convicted about the meaning of a verse. It was the the Holy Spirit convicted about the content of the verse (the words that were there).

    The problem is that the Holy Spirit is pulled out like a trump card, and no one can challenge it because the challenger (me in this case) is seen as being in the place of challenging the HOly Spirit.

    Yet if I claim that the Holy Spirit told me that Rom 8:1 was in fact inspired as the modern versions have it, I have made the exact kind of claim and thus we have two opposite position both claiming the Holy Spirit as the source. How do you mediate between that? You can't, which is why the OP was misguided.

    It may be that Rom 8:1 should contain the phrase in question. But one cannot claim the Holy Spirit as confirming it because that is apparently not the way the Holy Spirit works.
     
  17. Steven2006

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    I see you point. I guess IMHO, I would suggest that you can't discuss it but can only agree to disagree. Because as you say you can't refute that, and if he feels personally convicted of such, he can't be dogmatic for that reason alone. He can say he is convicted and then go on to say because of that conviction he studied it further and came up with these conclusions and would like to discuss those.
     
  18. Jim1999

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    Sadly, the Holy Spirit gets blamed for a lot of errors in Christendom. We ought to be more careful about what we attribute to the Holy Spirit.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  19. DHK

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    The question is: Do you believe all men all liars?
    If not (besides Jesus Christ), can you point to one who isn't a liar?

     
  20. DHK

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    The question is misleading, if not a logical fallacy. It is the type of question an atheist asks:
    --"Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?"

    God is omnipotent, and can do anything that is possible to do.
    God does not do those things that are against his nature, or against His Word.
    In many things God has limited himself by the promises of His own Word. For He is immutable and does not change. He is God and does not lie.
    "His Word is forever settled in Heaven."

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    --The meaning of this verse concerns the assurance of our salvation. God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, not whether Romans 8:1 comes from the Critical Text or from the Majority Text. You have referred to Romans 8:16 before in this way, and you do not have a claim on the Holy Spirit for every conviction of yours, as opposed to everyone else's. You do not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.

    "if in fact He could do so if He so desires."
    God could. God won't. God limits himself according to His nature, His Word. He purposely did not allow the original MSS to be preserved because He knew that mankind would worship them as idols.

     

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