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Strong's, Lexicons and Greek Semantics

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010.

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  1. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    Online Bible (www.onlinebible.net) is also free and packs more wallop than E-Sword.

    John, this reminds me of the old and true saying: Young's isn't young, and Strong's isn't strong!
     
    #21 TomVols, Dec 19, 2010
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I plead the 5th....:cool:


    I do hope you and maybe preachinginjesus can cover the Hebrew ones. I'm deficient there.
     
    #22 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Bob, Those are solid study materials and should serve you well. Have you looked at electronic versions? Best thing is the incredible search function and the speed at which one can dig in. A man with a computer, some good software, and a bit of knowledge on how to use the languages and software can complete a search in 10 minutes that would have taken a doctor of the church a lifetime to complete. Studies like Lochyer's valuable "All the _____ of the Bible" series take seconds to complete.

    Solasaint, I'd say that your needs depend on your level of study -- and whether you wish to dig all over the Bible or just one particular pericope. A good lexicon will show you the places where the same word is used all over -- something that a commentary will not show. As for laying out the usage "in context" the commentary (if decent scholarship and not with "liberal" bent -- there are some out there that are not worth their weight in paper!) will win hands down. The lexicon focuses on the word, the commentary on the passage that the word is in, if that makes sense.
     
    #23 glfredrick, Dec 19, 2010
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your comments. I'll discuss Thayer's later.
     
    #24 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    But Crudens.... :laugh: Old Crudens literally went nuts. His nickname was "Crudens the Corrector," since he went around correcting everything he saw wrong. He would have been perfect for the BB. He ended up in an insane asylum off and on, as I remember.
     
    #25 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hi, SolaSaint. The advantage for you in having a good lexicon is that you can then make up your own mind. When you depend on a commentary you sometimes lock yourself into that view. If you have a good lexicon you can make up your own mind based on your own insights. Having said that, I do use commentaries for insights, and think they are valuable, but depend first of all on direct insights from the original languages. I hope this helps.
     
    #26 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  7. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Thayers was just "easy." Sort of like using the ASV -- "cheating" when it comes to Greek class.
     
    #27 glfredrick, Dec 19, 2010
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hi, Bob.

    Thanks for your recommendations. I'm impressed that you are doing your best without having any training in the original languages. You are a good example for others on the thread who have no training, yet want to dig deeper.
     
    #28 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thanks John! I don't read Greek, but I do want to go beyond Strong's.

    Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me and for the suggestions. :)
     
    #29 Amy.G, Dec 19, 2010
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Since Thayer's has been mentioned a few times already, I'll discuss it now.

    First of all, it's a good deal better than Strong's, that's for sure. Thayer's was the standard lexicon from the time it came out in 1885 (revised in 1889) until 1957, when Bauer's work was published in English. It was based on a previous work by C. G. Wilke in 1841. My father used it from when he was at Wheaton College in the 1940's. However, for modern day Greek studies Thayer's has two major problems.

    (1) It is very out of date, since it is more than 100 years old. There have been many, many papyrii discovered since then, and scholars now have much more to work with in determining Greek meanings.

    (2) Thayer's depends too much on etymology (also known as historical or diachronic linguistics, the study of word origins and changes in meaning), as other works from that era did. Linguists nowadays reject etymology as a way to determine contemporary meaning in 99 times out of 100. (The exception is when a word is extremely rare and there are no other clues as to its meaning.) Note what Moises Silva says about using etymology to determine meaning: "Although it would be a serious mistake to dismiss the method altogether, every proposal must be carefully scrutinized and evaluated on the basis of established semantic principles, such as the centrality of lexical structure and the determinative role of context" (Biblical Words and their Meanings, p. 44). David Alan Black also has a useful chapter in Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek.

    To sum it up, because of these reasons I almost never consult Thayer's when doing NT translation. I'll write more later on how meaning should be determined when I talk about how a translator decides on a word in the target language to represent a word in the original language.
     
    #30 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Don't you love being a dictator or king, maybe even conquoring the world? :thumbs:
    I hope you and Deacon can give insights about Hebrew lexicons later. I'm deficient there.
     
    #31 John of Japan, Dec 19, 2010
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #32 Luke2427, Dec 20, 2010
  13. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    #33 Mexdeaf, Dec 20, 2010
  14. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I bought my 1890 Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in 1978 because my older copy was worn out. I stick with the KJV of scripture, so it serves me well, and prolly will to my dying day. It is only a reference book to me and not a final authority.

    Whilst many words have changed meaning over the years, one can determine meaning from the overall context even better than a one-word definition.

    Most of my commentaries are old too. They remain useful. I don't even know a lot of the new theologians.

    By the way, I found two examples of letters written in 1658 and 1669, which are interesting use of "modern" English. I am trying to copy them so I can print them on the Board.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #34 Jim1999, Dec 20, 2010
  15. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    John & glfrederick...

    Thank you for your kind words.

    To be honest, I know I am fumbling around in the dark when it comes to taking Biblical word studies all the way back to the Hebrew or Greek. Just going to blueletterBible.org and listening to the pronunciations tells me how much I do not know.

    I also know it would take many years and many classes with trained scholars before I could begin with the original languages. I am within an hour's drive of several seminaries and I have thought many times of taking Hebrew and Greek classes because I have been told by several that you need a classroom learning environment to really learn the languages. I accept my ignorance and am satisfied with what I can learn from the books I do have and people willing to share in the online forums and blogs.

    . . .

    Dr. Bob mentioned classical Greek.

    I also am reading translations of classical Greek authors. Currently, I am reading Homer's Iliad and Pindar's Odes. I read English translations and commentaries. Yes, they have commentaries for classical Greek authors!

    . . .

    Amy and others, you might want to check out the online tools at www.blueletterBible.org before buying a lexicon. They have Thayer's, interlinears, fonts, and pronunciations.

    But there may be other online websites with similar or better tools.

    . . .

    (full circle)

    John & glfredrick...

    I know software would be faster and easier. But I like doing the quest with dusty old books. Reminds me of unrolling an old map and hunting for King Solomon's Mines. :thumbs:

    ...Bob
     
    #35 BobinKy, Dec 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2010
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #36 Luke2427, Dec 20, 2010
  17. BobinKy

    BobinKy New Member

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    Everyone...

    I will be offline through the next two weeks--except for checking personal messages.

    Please continue with the thread. I look forward to reading all of the good stuff about lexicons, dictionaries, and other resources.

    . . .

    Merry Christmas and remember the reason for the season.

    ...Bob
     
    #37 BobinKy, Dec 20, 2010
  18. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I like books... I have several thousand -- all read.

    I just like software for dealing with biblical language issues.

    I know a man who taught himself Koine Greek. He ended up as the Dean of Boyce College (Southern Seminary's undergrad school) and as the editor of the HCSB Apologetics Study Bible. Not too bad for homeschooled...

    It is very possible to learn Greek at home.

    All of Mounces Greek classes are available on-line for free. Just pick up his textbook and workbook and follow the classes as he (one of the world's foremost experts) teaches.

    http://www.biblicaltraining.org/biblical-greek/william-mounce

    For those looking for Greek-lite -- to use as a study tool, check out this class by Mounce:

    http://www.biblicaltraining.org/greek-tools-bible-study/william-mounce/foundations

    Either of those two classes would cost several hundred dollars plus registration at a seminary somewhere. Great resources!
     
    #38 glfredrick, Dec 20, 2010
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I just remembered I have Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament words.

    I can't believe I forgot that.

    Is it recommended by any of you?
     
    #39 Amy.G, Dec 20, 2010
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for posting, Jim. I'd love to see your letters!
     
    #40 John of Japan, Dec 20, 2010
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