Studies of the Original Texts

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by TheOliveBranch, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    I want to do a thorough study of the ancient texts, translations, and versions. I have read many of the posts here and realize how little I really know. I have read a few books, but what I find is that it usually becomes one man's opinion over another. There has to be answers to the questions I seek, and I'm sure that I haven't even touched the amount of questions I have'nt yet come to ask.

    Where did you all begin your studies? What books, courses, etc. did you begin with? I am not looking at trying to prove any version over another, but want the answers to be honest and unbiased. I realize this is a monumental study, and that I will not find the answers very quickly. I just want to know the course to follow, where to begin, and a path to take for a good study.
     
  2. LarryN

    LarryN
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2003
    Messages:
    958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ideally, begin by studying Hebrew and/or Greek (Greek especially). This doesn't necessarily mean Seminary- in some cases you can find high-quality lessons at some larger churches, even at no charge. My own church (approx. 2,300+) offers college-level Beginning & Advanced Greek in 27-week modules as electives during the Sunday School/ABF hours. A local Seminary Prof. has taught these for the past 18 years. After completion of both, a person has about the same capabilities in Greek as the average Seminarian! So look around for something like that, if you're interested.

    Also, be sure to read BOTH sides of the text/translations issue. Read Riplinger, Ruckman, Waite, and others for their KJVO views; and read James R. White, Kevin Bauder, and many others for the counterpoint.

    Don't let inflamatory words or claims be your guide- let the Holy Spirit guide you- and then draw your own conclusions. From some of my previous posts you may or may not be familiar with my position; but I have done my own research, and I know what I believe.
     
  3. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe history is a very important aspect. One should examine the history of versions and translations, how and when translations were made, etc. One should not examine the "Bible Version" issue *today* without looking at the "Bible Version" issue as it existed throughout the history of the Church.

    Westcott's "The Bible in the Church" is *excellent* for a study of Bible history, although this book can be a little tough to find.

    Here's some links you may find interesting:

    Bible Researcher - AWESOME site for history as well as version issues.
    English Bible History
    Three Early Bible Translations
     
  4. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Larry, for your suggestion. I intend to do some study in Hebrew. I have been studying Greek for several years, not that I am a scholar, but I have been studying it in my spare time.

    I plan to look at both sides. I am faced with some decisions, and need to look at the "other side", but I need to do this in a way to gather knowledge to make those decisions. Thanks.
     
  5. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Brian, for your suggestion. And thanks for the websites. I'm putting them onto my favorites and plan to use them.

    I'll search for a copy of Westcott's book. Thanks
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    There are a number of books put out by the United Bible Society, The American Bible Society, and The Bible Society of South Africa. There are numerous books by Bruce Metzger and Kurt Aland
     
  7. bryan1276

    bryan1276
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2003
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where to start your study. I have a testimony about this b/c I've done the Greek, Hebrew, 5-minute Lexicon study, Seminary, the whole shabang. I didn't really start learning what God said until I picked up and read with a believing heart a King James Bible. Reading and believing the words. As Corinthians says 'comparing spiritual things with spiritual' and through this kind of cross-referencing of what the Bible actually said (not a lexicon, commentator, scholar, or grammar said) I began building a real Bible believing, doctrinally sound, spiritually powerful Bible study that has not stopped yet.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    What were you doing in seminary without a believing heart??? It is no wonder you have problems. I started seminary with a believing heart and it was not long until I became an exclusive user of modern translations because I believed what God said in his word. The solution to any problem with God's word is a believing heart. Had you started there earlier, you would have been far better off.
     
  9. bryan1276

    bryan1276
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2003
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Larry, the Lord had mercy on me and answered every question I had. My trouble came from profs who wanted me to doubt the Bible. I have no trouble with Bible Believing preachers and teachers. And as far as doing better, I honestly dont know what your talking about .... ????? The point in my first message was that God wrote the Book and God gives the interpretation of the Book. Seminaries have the peculiar notion that linguists give the interpretation but I cant find that in my Bible anywhere. The Lord will absolutely bless a believing heart as he blessed mine and led me to believe his preserved words in the King James Bible that he used to bring in revivals such as never were before or after. In those days men had believing hearts, believing the Bible. Today men believe scholars and linguists, but I have never found that I should do that in my Bible or ever seen any fruits of that in history.
     
  10. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    "What were you doing in seminary without a believing heart???"
    To paraphrase Terry Pratchett:" looking for a cushy job without any heavy lifting" ;)

    This was not a serious response people, please continue with the topic of this thread. And that was:
    "I want to do a thorough study of the ancient texts, translations, and versions. &lt;...&gt; where did you all begin your studies? What books, courses, etc. did you begin with?"
     
  11. bryan1276

    bryan1276
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2003
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Great books for studies in manuscripts. Dean Burgon's "Mark 16:9-20", "Cause of Corruption", "Revision Revised", any book by Dr. Ruckman is excellent in dealing with manuscripts, Edward Hills "Bible Believing Study" and "The King James Bible defended" are both full of excellent manuscript histories, William Grady's "Final Authority" is excellent, Sam Gipps "Understandable History of the Bible" is good. You can find these at www.biblebelievers.com and from there search out the bookstore.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,158
    Likes Received:
    322
    That's wonderful Brian. I have had the same experience WITH lexicons, grammar studies, etc for over 40 years now.

    However, in a subsequent post you say…

    While you do say that these men have authored these books for “studies in manuscripts”, I have read all of these men except Gipp and all these men (including Dr. Ruckman) use lexicons, commentaries, works by “scholars” and grammars.

    I too am an avid reader of John Burgon (a scholar par excellence IMO). Any of his works contain a great deal of grammar and related lexicon work He was especially fond of the commentary work of the early fathers.

    Finally, the KJV itself is the product of translators who were all highly pedigreed scholars, knowledgeable and skilled in the use of those Bible research tools for which you seem to disapprove.


    HankD
     
  13. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2000
    Messages:
    1,770
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gipp is good, if u can get past issues of honesty n intelligence on his part. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    vide: http://post1.com/home/amarillo/heresy.htm
    search for "Gipp" n check out some of those links ;)
     
  14. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,135
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm glad you started reading what the Bible actually said. It's great to be able to read the actual Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic God inspired, isn't it?
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fortunately, the Lord did for me too.

    I never had these kind of profs for which I am thankful. The closest I have come to these kind of people is here on this board, where some are convinced that we should doubt the Word of God and question it because it is not the KJV. That is a shame that people hate the dissemination of the word so much that they will create doubt and confusion in the minds of others.

    I didn't say antying about "doing better." I said you would have been better off had you had a believing heart in seminary. Then you could have learned more.

    Proper Bible interpretation comes from Bible study. Linquists serve an important role in that. That is how you got your KJV. You believe scholars and linguists just like hte rest of us do. The problem you have is that you have contradicted doctrine of Scripture that God has revealed. If you have not seen fruits of scholars and linguists then you are dead. All fruit is the result of men who have studied the Scriptures in their original languages and translated them so that people all through church history have had the Bible in their own language. It is a shame you have departed from the practice of church history and the doctrine of the Scriptures. I hope you will come back to it with a believing heart.
     
  16. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could your end results have been impressed by who was doing the teaching? bryan has given me more help in what he has suggested than you have in your post. You may be trying to give advice for belief in the modern translations, but I fail to see what this advantage would be in studying all translations. You are, in effect, taking the modern translations, leaving out all TR, KJV, etc. and declaring them inferior without giving what would cause you to take this stand. Please don't make this an arguement of which is best. This is why I am taking on this very deep and lengthy study, so that I can come to conclusions with some sort of support.
     
  17. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ruckman and Gipp?
    If the final result is predetermined to be a KJV-Onlyist conclusion, then these would most certainly work......
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Possibly. I knew these were men committed to academic honesty and integrity. They defended their positions from the Word with rigorous standards of exegesis and study. They did not simply declare other people to be wrong. They gave reasons for it. And in matters of liberty, they granted liberty and decency for people to disagree. In the end, you did not have to hold their position. You simply had to defend your own with Scripture rightly used.

    In my over 6600 posts, I have very many times given solid, undeniable reasons for what I believe. My position is in fact the one held by the vast majority of orthodox Christianity for all of church history.

    I am not taking all the MVs and leaving out the KJV and the TR, or declaring them to be inferior without reason. I have given reasons in other places why I say what I say. The KJV is an excellent translation. But it is 400 years old and based on the TR which is a demonstrably inferior text, compared ot the other options. But "inferior" in this respect is a slight matter of degrees. The TR has readings with little or no Greek manuscript support. It was formed by a textual critic who used less than a dozen of the more than 5000 manuscripts now available. It was changed at least 4 times prior to the translation of the KJV and we do not even have the TR it was translated from Scrivener's TR was edited on the basis of the KJV and Scrivener himself points out dozen's of the problems in the TR.

    The KJV uses outdated language, uses words that need to be updated for modern times because those words have changed meanings. It uses stilted sentence structure and difficult grammar. For the modern reader, there are better choices in our own language. That does not mean the KJV is bad or wrong.

    The MVs are generally better because they have a better textual base (using all manuscript evidence rather than only some of it). They are also translated into contemporary language just as the KJV was 400 years ago. The MVs have the same purpose that the KJV did back then. It is simply up to date and in the language that we speak.

    I have often said I don't care what version (among the faithful ones) that someone uses. But whatever you use, you must have a proper doctrine of bibliology. That is where the KJVOs fall short. They have an admirable passion for God's word. They lack a biblical doctrine of God's word. Some of them are committed to intellectual dishonesty, having been confronted about their error and refused to repent of it. Others are simply mislead and are repeating what someone has told them. Either way the outcome is the same ... the biblical revelation about Scripture is compromised. That we must not take lightly.

    I highly recommend this. But be aware that you can spend a lot of time chasing after the wind (in the idea of the Preacher in Ecclesiastes). You can get caught in a lot of foolish speculation (to use the words of Paul). These must be avoided. There is a great deal that can be gained from a very little study. In reality, the discussion about English versions is pretty useless. The KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, and ESV are all good choices and each has it benefits and drawbacks. They should be compared. Discussions about Greek texts is largely academic and probably useless for most. Both are discussions that I have been deeply involved in here.

    Long story short ... I have given lots of reasons for my belief in this forum. There is no shortage of my defending it. What I resent from people like Bryan is the implication (or outright statement) that those who disagree with his position do not have a believing heart. That is highly offensive. There is no way he can know the state of someone's heart. To say that there is no fruit from modern versions is to have one's head in teh sand. Those are emotional arguments that have no place in honest discussion of these issues. We must be honest with the facts first and foremost.

    I encourage you to study. It is a topic worthy of consideration. But be careful about getting bogged down in useless minutae. It is can be damaging to our life mission.
     
  19. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    B in R,

    And if One were to read only White, Bauder, or others they would come to the conclusion that the KJV is not to be given any other credit than having a place in history until the other older, better manuscripts were translated into better versions, correct?
     
  20. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry,

    What would you recommend? I have a few books on the beginning of Bibles, translations and such. I also have books written by some people that have done deep studies and over time have some collections of various documents, manuscripts, etc. In the little that I have, I can see where and when Bibles have come from. But in all, I don't see where I can place any version over the KJV.

    I am not saying this to begin any argument. I want to know, but I have a fear that the only reason we [KJV users] are being given such a battle is because of some plan to break down and water down strong Chrstianity.

    I have been taught from a KJV, being grounded in the language. It is no problem with me to understand the "archaic" words. I don't understand how manuscripts, found centuries later, are deemed "better" because they are older. I am currently faced with the use of MV in a church I am currently attending. I can overlook the confusion in the services caused by reading from a version that is not the same as half of the others in the church. But I am very bothered by words that are either deleted or added (sometimes for clarity, others because of the manuscript issue), and the way that this is dealt with. Red flags go up when the reason is because "better manuscripts" or "for clarity" is the reason.

    I am not arguing with your views, but am earnestly searching for reasons and truth. I only have brought up this and other topics because I am truly in need of help. I am trying to read your "6600" posts, but there are about 3 to 4 times that in posts with oppsing views, thus comes more confusion. And my eyes can only handle so many hours of the computer monitor. [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...