substitute words (and liquid)

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by richard n koustas, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    the poll on substitute curse words got me thinkiing....

    since i've been attending baptist churches (and i really have noway of knowing if this is typical for other baptist churches), there is a substitute word that really bugs me. i am sorry, but at the last supper Jesus did not pass around the cup of 'juice', He passed around the 'wine'. substituting the word 'juice' for 'wine' and substituting the liquid (juice instead of wine) just bothers me.
     
  2. LeBuick

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    We do not substitute the word but wine is not used in our Church for fear of the recovering alchoholics. Perhaps we should have both???
     
  3. Rooselk

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    A number of years ago I was reading a great book about missionaries ministering in Irian Jaya, Indonesia. One of the things I found curious in the book is that the missionaries used local foods when teaching the native people about the Lord's Supper, which as I recall in this case was yams and water. The reason that was given for this substitution was that bread and wine were foriegn to these tribal people.

    I am of the conviction that wine should be used in the Lord's Supper, as was commanded by Jesus himself. My former church used wine and would not allow grape juice as a substitute. However, my current church allows grape juice to be substituted in those instances where the individual Christian cannot use alcohol (as is the case of those with alcoholism). I personally think the latter practice is a good compromise.
     
  4. John of Japan

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    Why should it bother you? You are a Baptist, right? One of the Baptist distinctives is that every Baptist church is autonomous, so when my church uses grape juice, why is it anyone else's business??

    My studies have led me to the position that first century "wine" (Greek oinos) had much less alcohol content that today's wine has. So we use grape juice. I don't consider it a substitution, I consider it my interpretation. It doesn't matter to me what your church does, but I'm going to do what I believe is right for my church--as I should hope you will if you are a pastor or ever become one.:type:
     
    #4 John of Japan, Jun 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2006
  5. John of Japan

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    Here is what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) says:


    "1. Mixed Wine:
    In Old Testament times wine was drunk undiluted, and wine mixed with water was thought to be ruined (Isa_1:22). The "mixed" or "mingled wines" (see I, 1, (5), above) were prepared with aromatic herbs of various sorts and some of these compounds, used throughout the ancient world, were highly intoxicating (Isa_5:22). Wine mixed with myrrh was stupefying and an anesthetic (Mar_15:23). At a later period, however, the Greek use of diluted wines had attained such sway that the writer of 2 Maccabees speaks (15:39) of undiluted wine as "distasteful" (polémion). This dilution is so normal in the following centuries that the Mishna can take it for granted and, indeed, R. Eliezer even forbade saying the table-blessing over undiluted wine (Berākhōth 7 5). The proportion of water was large, only one-third or one-fourth of the total mixture being wine (Niddāh 2 7; Peṣāḥīm 108b).

    Note.
    The wine of the Last Supper, accordingly, may be described in modern terms as a sweet, red, fermented wine, rather highly diluted. As it was no doubt the ordinary wine of commerce, there is no reason to suppose that it was particularly 'pure.'"

     
  6. John of Japan

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    As far as the meaning of the Greek word oinos, almost always translated by the English word "wine," there are times when it is very clearly grape juice in the Bible. The "new wine" of Mark 22 is clearly grape juice prior to fermentation, since the passage describes the fermentation process happening to the "wine."

    Now, with such variation in the NT as seen in the above ISBE article and the use of the word oinos I just mentioned, it seems to me that every church should be able to choose their own "wine," as long as it is a liquid made from the grape. I grew up in churches that used grape juice, and the church I pastor will use grape juice as long as I pastor it.

    If a church decides they want to use "wine" for the Lord's Supper exactly like that of the Bible, they need to (1) find a similar climate to Palestine, (2) tread out some grapes, (3) allow the juice to ferment exactly like they did in Bible times, and then (4) dilute it by about 3 or 4 to 1. Oh, and by the way, I defy anyone to get drunk on that mixture, unlike modern wine, which can be 9-14% alcohol, or even more for a fortified wine. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. Deacon

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    Substitute words

    As part a small group of men in our local church are in the long process of re-writing our churchs' constitution.
    A while back we came upon the part where we describe baptism and communion.

    We do not use wine, we use (Welches) grape juice.
    So we could not write that we use wine for communion into the constitution.
    We substituted the words BREAD and CUP.

    Works for me.

    Rob
     
  8. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    most of my adult life was spent in a nonbaptist churchm, that celebrated the Lord's supper weekly and we had the choice of wine or juice. while i do miss the wine...i have come to really not like the word 'juice'.

    it is obvious that it was real wine in the corinthian church (1 cor. 11:21).

    if i ever become a pastor...it'll be wine (with juice as an option)

    someone pass the corkscrew. any one else?
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    We use the word "fruit of the vine" and it is Welch's grape juice. I know some people the first time achohol touched their lips were after they joined the church and they were shocked for they all their lives would not come near alcohol but joined the church and was given wine and it was not diluted. I feel much more comfortable using the "fruit of the vine". Thank you,
     
  10. John of Japan

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    Yep--and the Corinthians got in trouble for it! They must have forgotten to dilute it enough. :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:
     
  11. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    I used to be a teen ss teacher. a slew of teens were baptized and able to participate in the Lord's supper for the very first time. after one of the teens tasted the firmented "fruit of the vine", she exclaimed: "that was SWEET!". her first time participating at the Lord's supper, and it was sweet! i don't think that welches, or the diluted stuff would have the same reaction.

    now that i found the corkscrew...pass the sweet stuff. i want my rememberance of the Lord to be sweet...
     
  12. richard n koustas

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    i don't think they got into trouble for drinking undiluted wine, they got into trouble because some drank too much of it. some also ate too much of the bread, but that's a subject of a different thread...:wavey:
     
  13. John of Japan

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    :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Well...okay.:saint:

    So when do we start the bread thread?:applause:
     
  15. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    maybe we can start a poll...does your church serve leaven or unleaven bread for the Lord's supper?:wavey:
     
  16. webdog

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    The grape immediately begins to ferment when plucked from the vine, therefore even the grape juice would be slightly fermented.
     
  17. webdog

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    Do you think the "best" wine the Lord of Hosts will serve will be diluted (Isaiah 25:6)? The fact of the matter is wine is referred along with "...and other strong drink". The difference between wine (new and old) and grape juice is evident by the following:

    Numbers 6:3 he is to abstain from wine and beer. He must not drink vinegar made from wine or from beer. He must not drink any grape juice or eat fresh grapes or raisins.
     
  18. Phillip

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    This is very TRUE and the yeast is the dry powder that grows on the grape itself. When you wipe off an unwashed grape it will become shiney where you wipe off the yeast. This yeast is a natural yeast that was used to make the wine.

    The alcohol content in wine was NOT left at 1 or 2 percent. Wine will typically continue to ferment (depending on the sugar in the grape--and with the average grape) until it reaches 15 to 17% where the yeast is killed off.

    A lot of work has been done to try to develop a yeast that can stand a higher alcohol content so that it can be used to make more alcohol for ethanol to burn in cars.

    In order to keep the wine fresh in the Palestinian climate, it could NOT be diluted. Any dilution would have caused the wine to spoil in short order. This was also the reason the wine bags had to be good and fresh when used or they would split from the CO2 build-up from the yeast. This in itself points out the fact that the wine was used full strength.

    Should we use wine today? No, there is no need to because the fruit of the vine will not spoil nor is it needed to kill protozoa that grew in the stomach in this early time. It would also be unfair to recovering alcoholics.

    I just wanted to clarify the fact that the wine was regular wine indeed and the percentage of alcohol in wine is set by the yeast so it would have been the same as today; there is no need for us to hide this fact, it was just a fact of history and we have our choice of using the fruit of the vine as we do today without requiring ridiculous excuses of what wine was like in the first century. We don't have to justify using grape juice with no alcohol. It was simply what they drank at their table to wash down the unleavened bread that often made up a lot of their meals. When I first arrived in Jordan years ago our first meal in the restaurant was grape juice and unleavened bread. Nothing else, and I ate a ton of it (hungry--long flight).
     
  19. mcdirector

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    I've been in a SBC church as long as I can remember. We've always had grape juice and those iddy-biddy crackers. Well, the juice too is served in iddy-biddy glasses. The grape juice hasn't ever bothered me and I don't think we've ever called it wine anywhere.

    Now my Dad used to tell the story that his little bitty Baptist church (the one of his childhood) used to pop the top off a grape Nehi because that's what they could afford and it was about the right size to serve everyone. . .
     
  20. John of Japan

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    Or saltine crackers? :laugh:
     

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