Suicide

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by JamesJenn, Jan 8, 2002.

  1. JamesJenn

    JamesJenn
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    A friend said to me that a person who commits suicide will go to hell because Jesus said there will be no murderers in heaven. What are your thoughts?
     
  2. livin'intheword

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A friend said to me that a person who commits suicide will go to hell because Jesus said there will be no murderers in heaven. What are your thoughts? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Depends, is this person that is thinking of killing themself saved? My thoughts are that s/he probably isn't. I've never known a Christian to be so hopeless.
     
  3. Briguy

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    Two thoughts, We are not judged by our actions but by whether we have trusted Christ to forgive our sins or not, suicide does not prevent heaven.

    When Jesus was talking about murderers it was in the context of not being saved. Still being the old creation. Many murderers over the years have by faith trusted Christ and become new creations and are/were just as forgiven and just as heaven bound(or in heaven) as anybody else.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  4. Gina B

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    Check out the murderers on the Bible. Look up the suicides in the Bible.
    Yes, it's still a sin, and a major one.
    But Jesus shed his blood to cover our sins before we even knew we were going to commit them. That should tell you a little something about how he felt about what we were going to do in the future..unless you think you're the judge of what sins are bad enough to break God's promise of eternal life.
    da Gina
     
  5. Rev. Joshua

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by livin'intheword:


    Depends, is this person that is thinking of killing themself saved? My thoughts are that s/he probably isn't. I've never known a Christian to be so hopeless.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think if you talk to a professional pastoral counselor or experienced pastor you'll find that there are plenty of Christians who are that hopeless.

    Joshua
     
  6. mark

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    I've been close to that hopeless, recently too. And I know I am saved.
     
  7. Grace

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    Sometimes "scary thoughts" come along. I know this because I was recently facing them. I didn't know how to go through one more day, and I got very hopeless. I know I'm saved, but I had lost sight of my Hope. Now, I'm ok, because I took the problem to God. But, even Christians can loose hope and "solve" their problems in unwise ways.
     
  8. Gina B

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    Yes, any human can feel that hopeless, or have a major crisis in their life. And thoughts of suicide are a normal human reaction when a person can't see an out to the situation they are in.
    Why do you think there's so many uplifting verses and promises of comfort in the Bible? God knows our nature, and he knew we'd need those. And people not understanding that Christians can feel the same emotions as non-Christians is nuts and leads to even more depression among God's children because they feel like they have to hide what's going on or that it's uncommon and then matters get worse and so it goes.
    Gina
     
  9. mark

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    Gina, you couldn't be more right. Sometimes when I am feeling down, I feel evem worse because I add on "a Christian shouldn't feel this way". It is dangerous to deny that Christians get REALLY down. :(
    PS I am not feeling blue now. ;)
     
  10. jo

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    I know a Christian women who had gotten so depressed that she wanted to kill herself. But by the grace of God her sister had called her that night and they talked things over and She went to a hospital for awhile. She is now back in church praising God everyday and thanking her sister for listen to God that night.

    I beleive whoever goes to heaven or not is God's call. We do not have the say and we do not know completely. I have always been told that if you have Jesus in your heart and you do his works you will go to heaven. What about the people who will do anything and everything for others? The ones who are there for you and will be there for you but do not go to church and worship God. DO they get to go to heaven? :( No I don't think so but maybe God will see what they have done for others and He will let them in. :confused:

    DO we really know who will go to heaven and who will not? I believe only God knows.

    God Bless you all! [​IMG]
     
  11. Joy

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    I have counseled several suicidal Christians, who were definitely saved. Don't forget that there will be no liars in heaven either, come to think of it, there will be no sin. There will be many sinners saved by grace. As a Christian, all of your sins are forgiven, past, present, and future!

    This isn't a license to sin, though. Rom.6:1-2
     
  12. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jo:
    I beleive whoever goes to heaven or not is God's call. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is certainly true. As all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, none are worthy to be saved. Yet God in his infinite mercy has elected some wretched sinners to be saved, for the glory of his name (Eph 1:3-14). Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone (Eph 2:8-9).

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We do not have the say and we do not know completely. I have always been told that if you have Jesus in your heart and you do his works you will go to heaven. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Works plays no part in salvation, other than salvation being a work of God, and believers are saved unto good works (Eph 2:10). God-given faith is how we hold onto salvation by grace.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What about the people who will do anything and everything for others? The ones who are there for you and will be there for you but do not go to church and worship God. DO they get to go to heaven? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No one goes to heaven who rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is only by faith in Christ that one is considered righteous before God.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> :( No I don't think so but maybe God will see what they have done for others and He will let them in. :confused: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No one is considered rigthteous by what they have done. All good works done in sin are tainted and considered as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). Romans 3:12 (ESV)
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one."

    The only way of salvation is by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ and his substitutionary sacrifice.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>DO we really know who will go to heaven and who will not? I believe only God knows.

    God Bless you all! [​IMG]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Only God knows who is the elect and true believer. But merely claiming to believe in Christ is not acceptable to God. One must have saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans 10:9-11 (ESV)
    because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
     
  13. JamesJenn

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    Are there any examples in the Bible of a murderer being saved or a person who committed suicide in heaven?
     
  14. Bro. Curtis

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    It doesn't come right out & call the apostle Paul a murderer, but it does say that he consented to Stephen's death. (Acts8:1)

    Also...I believe Judas knew who Christ was, & recognized him as the savior, whether or not it was HIS savior we don't know. But it doesn't say he went to hell.

    The Bible doesn't tell us Cain went to hell, & seems to tell us he confessed his sin to God.

    David had Uriah killed. He could be considered a murderer.


    Did I help.....?
     
  15. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
    Also...I believe Judas knew who Christ was, & recognized him as the savior, whether or not it was HIS savior we don't know. But it doesn't say he went to hell.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Judas saved? I don't think so! :eek:

    Psalm 109:8 (ESV)
    May his days be few;
    may another take his office!

    John 17:12 (ESV)
    While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Matthew 26:22-24 (ESV)
    And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, "Is it I, Lord?" [23] He answered, "He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. [24] The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

    John 13:18 (ESV)
    I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'

    Acts 1:20 (ESV)
    "For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
    " 'May his camp become desolate,
    and let there be no one to dwell in it';

    and
    " 'Let another take his office.'
     
  16. Siegfried

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    Samson and Saul committed suicide, although I'm not sure we could say certainly that they were believers. Scripture doesn't give us any record of saving faith, and their lives don't demonstrate it too plainly either.

    Moses was arguably a murderer. David certainly was.

    [ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
     
  17. Chick Daniels

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    Siegfried brings up an interesting case with Samson. Samson actually prayed, "O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes." (KJV)

    Obviously God answered this prayer, which involved Samson's suicide-and revenge. It still doesn't say that Samson was a believer, but I know of professing believers today that fell into deeper sin than Samson. Only God knows whether Samson was one of His, but the final prayer was answered.

    Chick

    [ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Chick Daniels ]
     
  18. Joy

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    We also find many examples of believers who were either suicidal or depressed- Elijah, Jeremiah, Jonah, David, to name just a few.

    Suicide is not something a Christian should take lightly. It is serious. Yes it is a sin, and it is also a sin to wallow in the kind of self pity that leads to suicide, but depression and thoughts that lead to suicide can and should be addressed by believers. It would be wrong and extrememly judgemental just to write someone off who is depressed or suicidal, simply because it is sin.

    There is help in the Word of God, as well as modern medicine. I do not recommend getting counsel from the ungodly, as is warned about in Psalm 1. Seeing a godly counselor such as a Nouthetic Counselor, or a pastor is wiser. Sometimes medicine is also needed for brain chemical imbalances or pain, if that is part of the cause.

    Christians need to learn to be more sensitive to one another's needs. Prayer and support are much more valuable than judgment is. Don't forget the age old proverb about walking a mile in someone else's shoes! ;)
     
  19. mark

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    Sometimes, too, it can be a chemical imbalance. I had cancer years ago and the radiation therapy caused chemical imbalances that lead to depressions sometimes. It isn't always about hope.
     
  20. Helen

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    A couple of points:

    1. Samson is listed in Hebrews 11 as one of the heroes of the faith. And yes, he committed suicide.

    2. No way was Judas saved. Here are Christ's words from John 17:12 (NIV)
    While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that nameyou gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

    3. Absolutely yes there can be severe chemical inbalances, both 'artificially' and 'naturally.'

    "Artificially" can include post-natal 'blues', post-traumatic 'shock', chemical intake into the body (either legal or illegal), allergic reactions, the death of a child, etc. Anything from the outside that affects a person. Most people ride through these down times and weather them OK. But some don't. Some get caught, almost literally, in an emotional/chemical feedback loop where the more they struggle the worse it gets. To quit struggling then seems like the only possible relief. Most of these people can be helped if caught in time, and this is when a judicious use of anti-depressants can help break the cycle.

    The 'natural' causes of suicidal depression are just now starting to be studied. There seems to be a pattern of suicide in some family lines. This MIGHT be due to a mutation causing a chemical imbalance which, at some point in a person's life, can trigger an unbelievably deep, but 'floating' (not anchored to any known cause) depression. Suicides of this sort often die at approximately the same age other suicides in their family line have committed suicide, even when they are not aware of the former incidents. This kind of research doesn't get the funding that a lot of the high-profile research gets, so I have no idea how far anyone has been able to get with it. The last article I read on it was several years ago.

    In the meantime, for a Christian undergoing an episode of depression (and who said we were immune????), there are a few keys to help:

    1. Spend some time before bed listening to quiet praise music. Orient your mind to Christ before bed. This will help the sleep you get (often sleep when you are depressed is very broken) to be far more restorative.

    2. I'm not much for imagination where Christ is concerned, but it does help to imagine holding His hand through the day. This also helps orient your mind to Christ instead of your depression.

    3. If your depression is due to death or divorce, don't feel guilty when the depression starts to leave! Depression after one of those incidents can be a sign of how much you cared, and so it is, in that way, a good thing -- accept it as reassurance that you cared/loved so deeply! But there is a time when you will be called back to life, step by step. That is part of everything, too. Don't feel guilty about still being alive or still being able to function well.

    4. Accept depression as part of being alive occasionally. Not the long-term or suicidal kind, both of which need help, but the sporadic, down in the dumps kind which is part of our 'human condition.' Look yourself squarely in the mirror and say something like, "Hmmm, depressed are we? OK, enjoy it. But there's a time limit you know! A couple of days at the most here." Generally, if you allow yourself to have a one or two day no-holds-barred pity party, you will get sick of being in that condition yourself!

    5. Walk. around the block, or downtown, or through the woods. Walk. Keeping your system in functioning order will help it deal with the chemical imbalances that depression causes. Your body needs to be moving. But don't exhaust yourself with exercises. That will defeat the purpose.

    6. Eat balanced meals at regular times. Whatever works best for you, keep to that. And don't be afraid of carbohydrates (they tend to help moodiness -- but all that butter makes you fat which will make you more depressed, so watch that part!), or proteins (they help balance sugar absorption to keep you balanced there), but stay away from candy and cookies as the last thing you need is a sugar bounce.

    7. Sleep when you can, and whenever you can if you are getting less than eight hours a night.

    8. If you don't have a friend you can talk to (but who won't make it worse by sympathizing all over the place!), go to a Christian counselor. You need to talk.

    9. If there is any reason at all to suspect an organic component, see a doctor immediately. There are diseases and such which can contribute heavily to chemical imbalances in the system. Physical causes require physical cures.

    10. Closing this list with the same thing it began with: Christ. Talk to Him. He understands. He has a plan and a purpose for your life. You are loved.


    A wonderful book which -- although it doesn't treat depression directly -- deals with the "Why, God?" issue is by Joni Eareckson Tada, called "One Step Further." It is probably the least well-known of her books, and also probably the most helpful for anyone facing a time in life which is not exactly the stuff dreams are made of.


    Yes, I've had Christian suicide counseling. These are some of the notes along with what I found worked for me the year after my husband of 20 years left me for another woman, never looking back, and the children (one biologic and five special case adoptions) were only ages 6-17. That was 10 1/2 years ago. I cried, literally, for a year. But what God has done with me since then is incredible. That's not ego talking! That's shock!
     

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