? Sunami in Mt 21:25 ??

I say it is Luke 21:25.


Luke 21:25; (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Then there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and there will be anguish on the earth among nations, bewildered by the roaring sea and waves.

This interpertation seems to preclude
your undersanding of the verse. It is
the nations anguished and bewildered,
not the sea and waves as in a tsunumi.

 

Naw!


http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/2684/3.html?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Here are some questions i was asked
3 years ago or so. Also included
are my answers.
------------------------------
1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Yes.

3) Does/Has God changed?

Nope.

4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

Nope.

5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?

No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
selected for special service on the earth
during the Tribulation period.

7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

The Bible does not say it.
Millionare novel writers say it

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

9) Are there different classes of the saved?

No. But count me among the haired saved
(as opposed to the bald saved).

A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

No.

B) Is works necessary for salvation?

Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
not by their own works.

C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?

No, for gentiles.
Yes, for Jewish Israeli.

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.

E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?

Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
the Tribulation period.

F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

Yes.

10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?

Yes.

11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?

None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
should be to encourage holy living NOW.

12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.

13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.

14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?

Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
mid=trib crises

15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?

If your premesis is true, it did not affect their
salvation.

16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

The translations written in the language
that i understand: 20th century English.
The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.

17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?

pre-mil

18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?

No.

1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)

They don't see God's mercy toward them.

1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
a postribulation rapture.

1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

They will probably be disapointed in me that i
didn't see that God had blessed them with the
gift of martyrdom.

1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

No. But i have a concordance.
Want me to look it up?

20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

None of the above.
The minister at the church where i was saved
taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
After that i read the Bible. Never did find
anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
Rapture.

 

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

Matthew 24:7 (HCSB):

For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

A tsunami is but the expression on the sea of an earthquake
in the underlying "earth".
A tsunami is is a sign that we live in the Gentile Age:
the age that started at Pentacost 33AD and will end somtime
in the future at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of
the the church age born-again Christian elect saints.

Even so,
Lord Jesus,
come soon;
Maranatha!

 

Ed I could spend hours on what you posted, however I will narrow it to two:

You said:

You believe as we all do that the church is the Bride of Christ.

You said this:

I assume, correct me if I'm wrong, you believe the New Jerusalem is a literal city and ends human history.

However what does the Bible say:

Rev 21:9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem , coming down out of heaven from God.

1.So the New Jerusalem is the the Bride of Christ according to scripture
2. and you say the Bride of Christ is the Church saints.
3.Therefore The New Jerusalem is the Church.

You said:

Just as I suspected, you were taught the pre-trib doctrine by all those men just in-directly through your pastor. Did you ever wonder where he got it? Did you see him using a Scofield Bible with your 8 year old eyes?

So when you were indoctinated with that view, of course you took your pre-suppositions with you as you grew and studied. Never once questioning if the possibilty existed that your preacher might be wrong.

 

The USGS lists the recent earthquake/tsunami as the 9th most
severe in number of deaths. We note the largest
number of deaths in any known earthquake was
830,000 in the 23 Jan 1556 earthquake in Shansi, China.
The Lord did not return 3½-years later then.

 

Actuall go back to verse 20 for an even earlier sign:

20“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

So just watch, when you see the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem you'll know the Tsunamis are coming.

 

"DISTRESS OF NATIONS ==
THE SEA AND THE WAVES ROARING ==SUNAMI ????

What say ye? </font>[/QUOTE]I say that you seem to be caught up in the whole sensationalism of Jack Van Impe's whole prophecy in the news racket and that you are trying to read more into the Bible than what is really there.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Luke 21:8

I think this is a very important verse to keep in mind.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Luke 21:32

Joseph Botwinick

 

Yes, TB I Know. Just having a little fun with some dispies. However on what basis do you decide that Jesus has switched topics? He certainly said no such thing.