? Sunami in Mt 21:25 ??

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by trailblazer, Jan 13, 2005.

  1. trailblazer

    trailblazer
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    "DISTRESS OF NATIONS ==
    THE SEA AND THE WAVES ROARING ==SUNAMI ????


    What say ye?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I say it is Luke 21:25. [​IMG]


    Luke 21:25; (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    Then there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and there will be anguish on the earth among nations, bewildered by the roaring sea and waves.

    This interpertation seems to preclude
    your undersanding of the verse. It is
    the nations anguished and bewildered,
    not the sea and waves as in a tsunumi.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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  4. trailblazer

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    Joe,

    I didn't read the entire thread of the other thread but the way I read the verse, these things were EARLY signs. Luke (yes, I made a mistake in the title) 21:27 goes on to say afte the previous 2 verses; "AND THEN they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    So, believers would be a part of seemingly natural destruction. wouldn't you say?
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here are some questions i was asked
    3 years ago or so. Also included
    are my answers.
    ------------------------------
    1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
    how many ages are there?

    I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

    2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

    Yes.

    3) Does/Has God changed?

    Nope.

    4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

    Nope.

    5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
    time as the believers?

    No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
    dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

    6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

    A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
    raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    selected for special service on the earth
    during the Tribulation period.

    7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

    The Bible does not say it.
    Millionare novel writers say it [​IMG]

    8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

    No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

    9) Are there different classes of the saved?

    No. But count me among the haired saved
    (as opposed to the bald saved).

    A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

    No.

    B) Is works necessary for salvation?

    Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
    No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
    not by their own works.

    C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
    the tribulation?

    No, for gentiles.
    Yes, for Jewish Israeli.

    D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
    during the tribulation?

    Yes, for gentiles.
    No, for Jewish Israeli.

    E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
    then how can anyone be saved?

    Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
    The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
    the Tribulation period.

    F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

    Yes.

    10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
    the Jews or the Church?

    Yes.

    11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
    if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
    end of the tribulation only once?

    None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
    should be to encourage holy living NOW.

    12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
    or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

    No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.

    13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
    will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
    tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

    Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.

    14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
    is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
    is not on the earth?

    Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
    The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
    mid=trib crises

    15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
    believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
    their salvation?

    If your premesis is true, it did not affect their
    salvation.

    16) Which is superior, the English translations,
    or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

    The translations written in the language
    that i understand: 20th century English.
    The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
    contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.

    17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
    post-mil, or a-mil?

    pre-mil

    18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
    considered the Bride of Christ?

    Yes.

    19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

    Yes.

    1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

    Yes.

    1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
    saved outside of the blood of Christ?

    No.

    1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
    promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
    the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
    Where is the promise of his coming?
    for since the fathers fell asleep,
    all things continue as they were from
    the beginning of the creation.)

    They don't see God's mercy toward them.

    1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

    Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
    one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
    to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
    a postribulation rapture.

    1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
    your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

    They will probably be disapointed in me that i
    didn't see that God had blessed them with the
    gift of martyrdom.

    1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
    in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
    whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

    No. But i have a concordance.
    Want me to look it up?

    20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
    Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
    or did you first discover it in the writings
    of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

    None of the above.
    The minister at the church where i was saved
    taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
    I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
    After that i read the Bible. Never did find
    anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
    Rapture.
     
  6. trailblazer

    trailblazer
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    Ed,

    What does your post have to do with this topic???

    It doesn't even come close to it!
    "DISTRESS OF NATIONS ==
    THE SEA AND THE WAVES ROARING ==SUNAMI ????


    What say ye?
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.

    Matthew 24:7 (HCSB):

    For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
    There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

    A tsunami is but the expression on the sea of an earthquake
    in the underlying "earth".
    A tsunami is is a sign that we live in the Gentile Age:
    the age that started at Pentacost 33AD and will end somtime
    in the future at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of
    the the church age born-again Christian elect saints.

    Even so,
    Lord Jesus,
    come soon;
    Maranatha!
     
  8. trailblazer

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    Joe,

    To continue on...in verse 28 of Luke 21, we are told that "when these things begin to take place, [we are to] look up and raise [our] heads, because [our] redemption is drawing NEAR.

    So, those were only the warning sign, they were to be "attention getters!" :eek: :eek:

    The resurrection of the just and unjust wouldn't be happening yet - close but not as a part of the previous signs.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Ed I could spend hours on what you posted, however I will narrow it to two:

    You said:
    You believe as we all do that the church is the Bride of Christ.

    You said this:
    I assume, correct me if I'm wrong, you believe the New Jerusalem is a literal city and ends human history.

    However what does the Bible say:

    Rev 21:9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem , coming down out of heaven from God.

    1.So the New Jerusalem is the the Bride of Christ according to scripture
    2. and you say the Bride of Christ is the Church saints.
    3.Therefore The New Jerusalem is the Church.

    You said:
    Just as I suspected, you were taught the pre-trib doctrine by all those men just in-directly through your pastor. Did you ever wonder where he got it? Did you see him using a Scofield Bible with your 8 year old eyes?

    So when you were indoctinated with that view, of course you took your pre-suppositions with you as you grew and studied. Never once questioning if the possibilty existed that your preacher might be wrong.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    The USGS lists the recent earthquake/tsunami as the 9th most
    severe in number of deaths. We note the largest
    number of deaths in any known earthquake was
    830,000 in the 23 Jan 1556 earthquake in Shansi, China.
    The Lord did not return 3½-years later then.
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    Actuall go back to verse 20 for an even earlier sign:

    20“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

    So just watch, when you see the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem you'll know the Tsunamis are coming.
     
  12. trailblazer

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    Ed doesn't like Christ's words in Luke. It's too literal maybe?

    Originally posted by trailblazer:
     
  13. trailblazer

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    Grasshopper,

    Read the context of Luke 21:20-24. The destruction of Jerusalem IS being talked about here!

    But, he then turns and discusses the Second Advent in verses 25-28.
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    "DISTRESS OF NATIONS ==
    THE SEA AND THE WAVES ROARING ==SUNAMI ????


    What say ye?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I say that you seem to be caught up in the whole sensationalism of Jack Van Impe's whole prophecy in the news racket and that you are trying to read more into the Bible than what is really there.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. trailblazer

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    Ed,

    You are right about other Sunami's in past history - as you say occurred in 1556.

    However, the conditions like Luke 17 is referring to as being similar to the conditions during the time of Lot ARE THE SAME AS NOW! Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexualtiy? Sound similar to you?
     
  16. trailblazer

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    Ed,

    You are right about other Sunami's in past history - as you say occurred in 1556.

    However, the conditions like Luke 17 is referring to as being similar to the conditions during the time of Lot ARE THE SAME AS NOW! Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexualtiy? Sound similar to you?
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Luke 21:8

    I think this is a very important verse to keep in mind.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Luke 21:32

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  19. trailblazer

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    Joe,

    I have posted in other places that I think that there is far too much of a fixation of the end times. I happened to see for the first time Luke 21:25 and wondered about it?

    Thought it was interesting.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Yes, TB I Know. Just having a little fun with some dispies. However on what basis do you decide that Jesus has switched topics? He certainly said no such thing.
     

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