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DaChaser1 · Mar 12, 2012

Benjamin said: ↑

Boy, could we have a talk about values, rules, …the origins of moral principles …concerning the existing laws in ANY civil society and these “moral laws” in fact are being “imposed” on others within that society. You call these “conservative values” …as if being conservative in one’s values is shameful and Christians have no rights to engage in the matter of establishing these moral laws in the society in which they live. If you believe that you are failing to see and relate this to how moral laws are in fact actually established in ANY civil society, and where these individual values come from, and on what and how lines are drawn on morality and these rules which are based on moral principles are imposed and not to be crossed and are enforced by laws which carry penalties, all established through the individuals from within that society. You might want to ask yourself when are these morals imposed on others, and according to what, …and why we, as Christians (surely, not something to ashamed of) make these decisions (moral laws), which are part of ANY civil society, and how these (moral laws) are established according to one’s own values and willingness to stand up for these values, …which in our case are, or should be, led by “our” Christian beliefs!

I really believe your claim of being “liberal” is merely a rejection of the some of the distorted views on this board on how moral principles should be established, rather than based on an outright objection to “your” morality being imposed on others according to your values somewhere along the line. (If you don’t agree this is easy enough to prove) In your case I believe it is still being based on your Christian values (which would make you appear to be conservative to someone somewhere anyway, and I could logically prove this too) but you just do so in hesitation because of fear of how the world says it views your decisions if you admit they come from your religious beliefs. IOWs, I think you have bought into a lie that you are liberal only because you reject some of the reasoning given here to impose your Christian values into the world to establish moral laws.

First, show me a Muslim that doesn’t believe in the roots of marriage to coincide with the creational design of God to be between a man and a woman. You might as well just openly present your reasoning to be that if, “marriage between a man and woman is not perfect in every way, then we should throw out the whole concept of it being so and redefine it to include those of the same sex”. Then I could explain to you why your reasoning is a “perfectionist fallacy” and how it illogical to try to come to the truth in the matter about preserving the meaning of marriage to be defined to be between a man and a woman as created and defined by God can be discounted by throwing in a claim that some Muslims abuse the situation.

“Marriage” certainly does have established meanings involving a husband and wife as well as being a social contract that pertains to moral standards as well as legal contracts. The homosexual agenda is not about the legal contracts, if so those laws are easily enough written, it is about dissolving other’s moral standards, it is about claiming equality between that which is natural, such as the ability to produce children as per God’s design, and that which is not. It is about the homosexual’s attempts at abolishing moral standards in a society, equality, and justifying “their’ union through getting the members of a society to agree with them that God’s plan had it wrong.

Again, marriage is word that has meanings that are held dear, I don’t care if it is "not practical” or burdensome to have to establish a new “second” word or design a new contract; they do NOT have the right to redefine marriage on such pretenses that insist it is it an issue of “practicality”. That is simply a lame excuse to go about their agenda to discriminate against our values and trample the established definition of a marriage, which like I said, “equates to nothing more than a demand by the homosexual of equality between that which is spiritual/and/or God's will and that which is worldly”, it is an stereotypical “in your face” about what we hold sacred that could easily be avoided if they chose another term, but they won’t because it defeats their true agenda, which I spelled out. You have failed to show another reason that if “all other rights were the same how is it not about discrimination on their part against us?”

Then you don’t know me as well as you think, not that I accept these labels, but I’d probably be considered liberal compared to many here because I really don’t give a rats if the homosexuals have “government established” legal rights to pervert that which is natural and designed by God, that is between them and God. It’s not my job to judge whether an individual will be saved or not according to their sins; …as a matter of fact you will never hear me draw a line on sin that someone cannot cross as that would indicate that I believe another has “worked” his way in Heaven or out of hell. If I did that it would effectively demonstrate, with all practicality a denial of “my” own true reliance of be that salvation only comes by faith through grace alone. Off topic, but I believe this is what Matthew 7: 1-3 is relating to about one’s own judgments in this very matter and it coming back to bite him, and that later in Matthew it is referring to the same thing about the corrupt tree meaning the roots would be grounded in works rather than grace; therefore, the fruit of a confessed believer can be seen as either coming from works (bad fruit) or grace (good fruit) nothing more, so then to attribute good fruit to human works in seen by me to show a lack of understanding that salvation comes through faith by grace alone; further, that is what Jesus is telling those idiots that are thinking themselves justified and making their case while in actuality demonstrating where their true reliance is by saying “look at all the wonderful things “we” have done” and effectively revealing their thinking, what their faith is based on, that it is yet possible to have “worked” their way into heaven, Mathew 7:21-23, rather to place “all” their hope and faith solely on His loving grace. Another tread no doubt, but the point is: I fight the agenda of the homosexuals because it discriminates against an established type of union that is called “marriage” that I hold the meaning of as sacred being a union defined by God and I’m not fooled for one minute about their motives which are devious attempts to integrate that which God calls an abomination to that which is held sacred because they believe this would supposedly include them as having an equal type of union in every way and thereby make a statement that “you can’t separate our values from yours”.
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Pretty basic to me on this!

God instituted marriage directly, for the betterment of the family/society, and jesus confirmed that it was intended for ONLY one man and one woman!

NO verses in bible support homosexual lifestyle , nor a marriage between same sex!

menageriekeeper · Mar 12, 2012

Benjamin, I haven't quite made it through your whole post yet. So I'm responding only to the idea that I'm getting that you believe it's okay to "legislate" morality in this instance (that of homosexual marriage) because God instituted marriage. I believe God instituted marriage between man and woman for His own purposes as well. But,

We live in America. And in America there are a variety of differents peoples all with different beliefs. Who are we to force what is essentially our moral/religious beliefs onto people who don't agree with us?

You say we do this all the time after all we put murderers in jail. And that's true, its a red herring, but its true. But in the case of murderers the majority vote in this country agrees to do this. The same majority has decided to make the death penalty scarce. And those in the minority, well a good majority of minority owns a gun and can protect themselves! There is also the issue of harm. Murder causes harm. Who does same s*x marriage harm except perhaps the two people involved? How can we measure any potential harm caused by such?

Some things are the business of society. Other things simply wouldn't be an issue if one group wasn't trying to impose their views on another.

We are all up in the air because Obama is trying to force Catholics to pay for birth control for their employees and we should be. But while we are trying to keep and expand our rights in this nation, we are trying to limit the rights of others. Is this something that we as Christian Americans ought to be doing, or is it going to backfire and cause eventual repression of OUR rights? (<---the last is my opinion)

We have created a nation of Christ haters because we consistantly tried to force people to our way. And to a certain extent we succeeded. But we forced servitude on a people who didn't share our beliefs and now they are rebelling in all sorts of directions. This is just one of them. What good have we done? What good will it do in the future to harden hearts against Christ by forcing our views on unbelievers? Or are we digging our own grave of intolerance because we can't live and let live.

I thought we were supposed to be "salt and light", but it seems we are trying to clean up the outside of people without them ever knowing what it means to be clean on the inside.

Featured Support for the Right for Adam and Steve to Wed Grow in California...

Have your views of same sex marriage evolved?

Yes...

Never...

I know some, who have become more open and tolerant of same-sex marriage...

As long as the Bible is against it. so am I...

Maybe some day (see my comment as to why I said this)...

I would leave my church if they accepted same sex marriage...

DaChaser1 New Member

menageriekeeper Active Member

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Featured Support for the Right for Adam and Steve to Wed Grow in California...

Have your views of same sex marriage evolved?

Yes...

Never...

I know some, who have become more open and tolerant of same-sex marriage...

As long as the Bible is against it. so am I...

Maybe some day (see my comment as to why I said this)...

I would leave my church if they accepted same sex marriage...

DaChaser1 New Member

menageriekeeper Active Member