Supposed Contradictions

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Bro. Williams, Jul 22, 2007.

  1. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Disclaimer: This is not to be a KJVO thread. Although I am KJVO, this is not the focus of this thread.

    Now, on towards the topic at hand.

    I am currently in discussion on a different forum with a former minister who doesn't believe any Bible is the word of God in any form (e.g., KJV, NIV, NKJV, ASV, any manuscripts, etc.).

    The topic we are discussing is "supposed contradictions in the Bible".

    The discussion is set up in a fashion where this fella will give a supposed contradiction and then I explain how he is mistaken.

    Although this type of discussion is against my better judgment for the most part, I was swept in and am now in full swing.

    Thus far the issues have been trivial and not troubling to the least, but I think something may come up eventually if the discussion continues long and the Lord tarries.

    Here is what I ask of you fellow BBers. I am going to post some of the "contradictions" brought up by this unbeliever. I ask that those of you who believe the Bible as it stands (even if you believe it stands in various versions), in inerrancy, and without contradiction, that you would give your thoughts and answers for the given questions.

    Please, I beseech you brethren, even if we disagree on the KJV issue, do not make that an issue for this thread. I am seeking a response or responses in a positive manner, not the usual ridicule and trouble that a few of you so enjoy casting.

    The discussion that I am having with this individual is over all versions, but has been specified to the KJV between he and I so that we have a standard to base the discussion on, I ask that you would do the same here.

    Thanks ahead of time for the assistance and encouragement.
     
  2. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Issue 1:

    What color was the robe that was placed on Christ and who placed it?

    Matthew 27:28 Scarlet, Pilate

    Mark 15:17-20 Purple, Pilate

    Luke 19:2-5 Gorgeous, Herod (The color is not the issue here, but who placed it)

    John 19:2-5 Purple, Pilate



    (I only ask that you not use the reasoning of Matthew seeing it a different color than Mark and John. Thanks. )
     
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    I would submit to you that any non-believer who gets hung up between the words "scarlet" and "purple" isn't going to listen to anything you or anyone else has to say. This person, in my mind, is only looking for a fight.

    These colors are so similar that the words are used interchangably.

    It's like saying teal vs. aqua .....burnt umber vs. brown......midnight blue vs. black.

    It's way too close to say that they were calling the robe different colors.

    The color scarlet is a reddish-purple. The color purple is purple. I'm not having a problem with any alleged contradiction about the color.
     
  4. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0

    I couldn't agree more, one way or the other, especially on the fact that this fellow will not believe.

    I should have stated to begin with as well, that I am not swayed in any form by this fella's attempt to detroy the word of God, only slightly annoyed and vaguely intrigued..

    Good post.
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scarlett, :thumbs:
    (Did you see my new "baby" in my avitar? I know you love cats.)

    I would be really interested in how this "former minister" became an unbeliever. Maybe you could start another thread on that.
     
  6. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is the interesting part, maybe I should have said "supposed former minister".

    All he will say is that he was an ordained minister, no more facts. I have tried to corner him on it, he ignores. I wonder at times if he doesn't just use that as a line to try and intimidate others.
     
  7. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe that there was more than one robe, when you look at the four accounts concordantly and synopically. A friend of mine did a sermon on this that I will forward to you if I can find it. (I can't remember if that was the focus of the sermon or simply mentioned, so I don't know if I'll be able to cross-reference it.)
     
  8. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0

    That would be great, thanks!
     
  9. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    114
    I would like to see that to as I have not looked at these four passages to study them myself.

    Amy G., I LOVE the avatar!!! :love2:
     
  10. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,157
    Likes Received:
    367
    I'm going to subscribe to this - and I agree that purple and scarlet are not enough to doubt the Bible. And I wonder if this supposed "minister" was a minister of any of the more liberal churches. I know that my IL's pastor (United Methodist) doesn't believe the Bible is literally true - and that much of it is "stories" for us to learn from. :tear: That's just sad.
     
  11. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some (note I don't say "much") of the Bible is ""stories" for us to learn from." They are either "parables or illustrations, and Jesus used them fairly frequently to make a point or convey a truth. However, only about a fourth of the Bible is either direct doctrinal teaching(s) or these sorts of illustrations.

    That still leaves about three fourths, of "either history or prophecy.

    Some one fourth of the Bible is "prophecy" and half of it is history, which history, in all instances, purports to be 'literally' true.

    I agree with this part. The prophecies may be somewhat subject to 'interpretation' by us. The 'history' is not. Either it is true, or it is not, in each instance. And, as did the late Dr. W. A. Criswell, I believe and 'preach' it to be 'literally' true, in every instance.

    As someone once said, "From Genesis to Maps." :) :thumbsup:

    Ed
     
    #11 EdSutton, Jul 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2007
  12. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0

    A fella like that oughta get a real job and quit lying!
     
  13. abonmarche'

    abonmarche'
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will give this a jab. Question of why did I end up in three hospital? Because, I hurt and bruised my body up upon a high impact accident. The results were enormious. But it was very clear what all humans have identical insides. The inner parts of all of us are the same. Now about the issue of Color of the robe or the cloth put upon Jesus body that WAS Observed by each of the writers of scripture describing listed in board posting number one. When the hospital staff gave me blood, what color was it? Purple! Why? Because no oxygen got to it. Also what was the color of my blood at the accident, that every one was reporting to the police reports? Purple. Why? Because it was large Veins--not the arteries cut or severed. IF the Arteries had been cut on me, the blood would pump out bright red scarlet blood because of oxygen and come out in tremendous force as well as causing death sooner on any human. Jesus was God man to show us that HE to bleeds blood. The cloth Jesus was wearing was changing color because of his bleeding upon the material by His body either by the VEINS or the Arterues. So, ask that minister why He does not experiment on his own born body from his mother womb and test the results to see if this is not true. That humans have two colors of blood--purple and scarlet. Simple! He definitely does not have blue antifreeze coming out of him yet? Been there and done it. By the grace of God and his love for me, am I now able to share this with you. By the way, at the hospital they said that on a windy day the purple blood coming out of a human changes to a brighter red. Why? The red blood cells have not died yet and are able to recieve the oxygen nesscary to live longer by the wind velocity until it dries out and then changes color to purple to creat a scab. Now the blood is dead.
     
    #13 abonmarche', Jul 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2007
  14. Steven2006

    Steven2006
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is not a direct answer, but I thought might help you in the approach. This is from the book "Four Faces OF Jesus" by Leslie B. Flynn.

    "Here is the thesis of this book. As a building may be viewed from four different sides, so the Holy Spirit photographed the Lord Jesus from four varying viewpoints. Though He is the glorious subject of all four Gospels, each writer stressed a specific side of His personality, and so under inspiration selected materials that develop that particular trait. Later chapters will show why each writer included details and omitted others.

    Many differences in the Gospels can be explained by the varying purposes of the writers. Authors often viewed Jesus from diverse angles, like two knights who fatally wounded each other in a fight over whether a shield was bronze or gold. Both were right, for one side was bronze, and the other gold. But approaching from opposite sides, each saw a different metal. Close examination of many Gospel accounts show them not contradictory, but complimentary. Experts in jurisprudence remind us that if witnesses use precisely the same words on the witness stand, we suspect coaching and collusion. Differing but reconcilable accounts in the Gospels raise our confidence in the author's credibility. "
    - Leslie B. Flynn
     
  15. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    I'm not sure why you made this comment, since this could very well be a significant part, or whole, of the solution. I am a graphic artist and deal with color perception and variation regularly.

    First, about 8% of the male population is 'color blind' (this is a difference in the eye). Second, it is a scientific fact that every person sees color somewhat differently (this is a difference in the brain). Color perception in humans is subjective (color can now be objectively measured by modern instruments).

    Third, color surfaces can appear extremely different under various lighting conditions (say, outdoor natural sunlight versus indoor light cast by tortch flame); the perception of color is affected by the spectrum of the light source and reflection off of other colored surfaces. Fourth, the description of color can be influenced in contrast of surrounding enviroment (bright, dark, or vivid backgrounds).

    A contradiction might be if the same viewer, under precisely equivalent conditions, stated different results.
     
    #15 franklinmonroe, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  16. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with the last two statementa, but I cannot go as far as to say that one described it in an incorrect color was all I really meant. Mostly though, it is a response that is not accepted in the arguement on the other forum.
     
    #16 Bro. Williams, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  17. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    Although there seems to be agreement between Mark and John in the English translation ("purple"), they actually use different words in Greek (both also different from Matthew).
     
    #17 franklinmonroe, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  18. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    It is not "incorrect" for an individual to report accurately what their senses perceive.

    If these folks on the other forum do not accept the natural complexity and diversity of rational science, then perhaps they are unreachable.
     
  19. David Lamb

    David Lamb
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have in front of me the book "Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible" by John W. Haley (Published by Baker Book House). Unfortunately, though, I cannot find any reference in it to the colour of the robe that was placed on Christ.

    As to who placed it, could the same kind of mockery have taken place both at Herod's court and at Pilate's?
     
  20. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    While bleeding onto the cloth may have changed the appearance, I do not find this a convincing solution. Notice Matthew 27:28 (KJV) --
    And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.​
    This narrative seems to describe the robe as being "scarlet" even before it is place upon His bloodied back, in contrast to Mark's account that describes the cloth as "purple" (15:17, KJV) --
    And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his [head],​
    These descriptions seem to be of the robe's original color at the time of its initial placing.

    Whether red or purple to begin with, I am unconvinced that the robe would appear as the other color due to bleeding. My experience with blood is that while a small amount is red at first, larger amounts are deep red, and begins to turn brownish. Bleeding might make a white garment redish, but I don't think a purple robe would become red-looking (of course, a red cloth would practically unaffected by the addition of blood, perhaps appearing darker from being wet).
     

Share This Page

Loading...