Supreme Court upholds Kentucky's use of lethal injections

If human life wasn't so precious to God, He wouldn't have required a life for a life. But it is, and He does.

It is a sad thing that posters who claim they are born again believers, can attack most everything good, and stand up for so much that is wrong.

 

==Nobody here does, but we do have the Word of God which tells us how God views things like capital punishment.

==While it is true that God is the author of life, it is not Biblically true that only God can take life. Capital punishment is the taking of the life of a person who has killed another (Gen 9:6). Government has the right to put people to death, God has given it that right, and God uses that to enact judgment on earth (Rom 13:2-5). Therefore when you claimed that capital punishment is not right, you are claiming that God has promoted something that is not right. That is clearly very dangerous ground. We need to stick with the Word of God and not our opinions. The Word of God clearly supports capital punishment. Therefore we must do the same. We should not rejoice over the use of capital punishment (Prov 24:17-18) but we should realize that it is a sober reminder of the wrath of God being expressed through human government.

==That has nothing to do with government and capital punishment. We see this in Romans chapters 12 and 13. In chapter 12 Paul re-states many of the same ideas that Jesus did about personal relationships. In chapter 13, however, he goes on to talk about how the government is God's agent to punish those who "resists authority". God has given the government the sword and the language of Romans 13:3-5 makes it very clear that God expects the government to use the sword when necessary.

==What you, or I, think is not important. The only thing that is important is what God has said through His Word. Your words make the authority God has given to the human government into a mockery. The Word of God is clear, God has given the government the authority to use the sword because the government is "an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil". Because of that we are to obey the government. We are to obey because of the possibility of wrath and we are to obey because God says so. No place in Scripture does God's Word say that God has given government the authority but expects them not to use it. No place does it say that. You are reading your personal opinions into the Word of God. We should never do that.

==On a personal level you are correct (Rom 12:19) but that does not apply to government (Rom 13:1-5). When the government executes a murderer it is acting as a minister of God to bring wrath on the evil doer. It is doing what it is suppose to do. There is nothing wrong with that and for you to say there is something wrong with that is very troubling.

==That is a whole different issue. You said that "Capital punishment - legal but bad". In saying that, you have accused God of supporting that which is bad and "not right". Such an accusation, while I doubt that is what you meant to do, cannot be overlooked without challenge. The government has to do the best job it can in making sure the right person is executed for the murder. That means that the government should use every resource it can use to make sure that the right person has been convicted. When a mistake occurs it is very tragic. However there is no hint in Scripture that God would condemn the government for making an honest, but tragic, mistake. It is the same with a police officer. Certainly the "sword" includes police on the street who often have to make split second decisions that involve life or death. If they make an honest mistake that is tragic, but no place does the Word of God say that they would be punished or held accountable by God. Humans are not perfect and therefore human government is not going to be perfect, yet God has still seen fit to give it the right of the sword.

 

Clearly I don't agree with your application of Old Testament history and revelation onto New Testament revelation. That would mean you're making a mockery of God. Jesus is a greater revelation then the Old Testament and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

I note that I didn't communicate my transition from what I believe Jesus expects to how that will look from a policy perspective. I don't like any government having the authority to kill its citizens. There are too many examples from history which show us that they are prone to abuse their authority. That also doesn't mean wrongdoers shouldn't be punished and I'm not sure where you got that from what I posted.

I wasn't speaking of a life and death situation out in the field with the police. I was referencing that which is done in the courts, where there is time to examine the evidence. I'm not sure a "we did the best we could, so sorry" is adequate for wrongly killing someone. It is possible to be an avenger for good without killing someone, even if we think they deserve it.

 

I'm curious - where did Jesus say that capital punishment should no longer be administered by human government?

 

He didn't exactly say those words, it is drawn out from his directives of love and blessing that is to be directed toward our enemies.

He didn't say go ahead and kill either, so this question falls a bit short of addressing the question at hand.

 

==It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, it is a matter of what the text says. It is in black and white every time you open your Bible. We all need to stop agreeing or disagreeing and start accepting what it says.

==I did not dismiss anything Jesus said. In fact, most of my reply was based on the words of the Apostle Paul, a slave of Jesus whom the Holy Spirit used to pin most of the New Testament.

==So you don't like the Biblical fact that God has given human government the sword? Do you disagree with God's action(s)?

==I dealt with the abuse/mistake issue in my reply. It does not change the fact that God has given the government the sword.

Scripture must be our rule, not our suggestion, and we should follow it. What we "think" or "feel" is 100% beside the point. We should obey what the Scriptures teach.

 

Name one. Your problem is you just can't deal with the hypocricy of your christian statement versus your political stance.

 

You're saying sword is an actual sword? We don't use swords today to kill people, so we must "feeling" or "thinking" too much with our lethal injection and stuff, it's right there in black and white!

Clearly sword is a metaphor for authority, used one verse earlier. You can be completely square with scripture and still not kill anyone, punishment does not have to mean someone dies.

 

I don't have such a problem. My problem is I have little patience for spiritual infants who think they know everything.

 

Oh most wise and mature one, perhaps the mote in your own eye is blinding you? If all you can do is insult people, maybe you need to pray for God to grant you both patience AND maturity. Not to mention a little Christian love to those brothers and sisters who think differently than you.

 

The question here, as with so many issues of biblical interpretation, turns on the human element in the production of the Bible. No one is questioning God's inspiration of scripture. But what about the human element? It appears to me that the role of the authors of the biblical books is pretty prominent. The number of apparent contradictions in scripture and the variety of accounts of the same event suggest that the human element is significant. Of course, I'm human, so I could be wrong. I refer you to the scripture verse that serves as the last part of my signature.

Now for the word you've all been waiting for: I oppose capital punishment absolutely because of my Christian faith. From my reading of scripture, I believe that, being sinful, human beings are flawed. Our judgment is flawed. We are subject to the temptations of money, power, position, prestige, and an over-inflated sense of our capacity to know what is true. Because of this, how can we make any decision whose consequences cannot be rescinded if they are later discovered to be wrong?

We are currently dealing with a case in Tennessee where a death row inmate has been found to be the victim of evidence tampering after he has served over 20 years on death row. He has advanced MS, and yet the state considers him a flight risk. Recently a judge has ordered him released. This decision was long over due. I also refer you to Governor Ryan of Illinois who was informed that many of his state's death row inmates were there because of misconduct by police, prosecutors, witnesses, and others. Just before he left office he courageously commuted all capital sentences to life in prison because he did not want to be responsible for allowing even one innocent person to executed.

Tim Reynolds

 

Oh, you mean Christian love like you displayed here when you accused fellow believers of blood-thirstiness?

Maybe you need to take the mote out of your eye before you take it out of Bro. Curtis's who takes it out of BaptistBeliever's. :laugh:

 

But he didn't rescind capital punishment either. And if you apply "love your enemies" in the way you are doing with capital punishment, then you need to be consistent. For instance, how is letting someone rot in a prison cell for the rest of their life considered "loving your enemy" while executing them is not? To be consistent, you should want to seek the freedom of that person, right? And if not, then you are not "loving" him. So you really have no consistent basis to oppose capital punishment.

And when you say that my question "falls a bit short of addressing the question at hand," I was only responding to what you said earlier:

So when called to answer the question, you can't give a solid response, since you know that you really don't have a consistent basis to oppose CP.

 

Andy, you need to do better with your reading comprehension and logic. Curtis' remarks were directed toward an individual as a personal attack. My comments were general, and not directed to any BB members, but to a segment of society.

 

I asked you a question a few pages back. Care to take a stab at an asnwer ?

 

A distinction without a difference. When you attack a "segment of society," you likewise attack the individuals within that segment. Go back and read your post - it was a direct attack on anyone who is anti-abortion and pro-captial punishment (and anti-socialized medicine and pro-Iraq war). There is no way around it.

 

Actually, MP, my question isn't in this thread, but another one dealing with the importance of believing all scripture, and not just singling out the ones that make conservatives look bad.

 

Which makes it a matter of secular law, then, which we are to subject ourselves to.

If a State law allows the execution of death convicts, then so be it. Those who don't like it can lobby for a change of the law, and if the law is abolished, then so be it as well.

I personally believe heinous crimes should be met with a death penalty for the offender, not simply to scare anyone into not committing heinous crimes, but as a matter of purging the society of those who commit such crimes against members of society who contribute to society, which is also the principle behind God ordering the stoning to death of adulterers and sodomites, a purging of God's people.

But if the State law says that law-abiding, productive members of society should further be burdened with the expense of keeping one of its murderous or destructive members alive, then so be it as well.

 

In your argument you have defined love as the absence of punishment, that's not what scripture says. You commit the crime, you are found guilty, you do the time. So your argument falls short in pointing out my supposed "hypocrisy". Punishment does not have to include killing people to be punishment. Jail leaves, however small, the opportunity for the individual to repent and become a Christian. Death is therefore natural and totally in the hands of God. Society is protected, justice is served and the individual is at a place where the mercy of God can still reach them. Now you tell me which is more loving!