Syllogism - is it valid?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Felix, Nov 7, 2003.

  1. Felix

    Felix
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    Hi everyone!

    I came across this syllogism recently and wanted to see the thoughts of others on this 'word-play'. I have not even looked it up yet in my 'Logic' book to see whether it is a valid one or not...Here it goes:

    1. All doctrine that everyone is bound (by God) to believe must be true.
    2. Everyone is bound to believe that Christ died for him.
    3. Therefore, Christ died for All man.

    Is this syllogism valid, or invalid? Why or why not? Some thoughts....

    Thank you [​IMG]
     
  2. GH

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    Some scripture thoughts in various bible versions:

    Romans 5:18



    18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. (Concordant)

    Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (NIV)



    Rom 5:18




    Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (KJV)



    It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (Weymouth)



    So then as through (1) one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (2) act of righteousness there resulted (3) justification of life to all men. (NASB)



    18Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men. (Amplified Bible)



    18Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. (New Living Translation)



    18Everyone was going to be punished because Adam sinned. But because of the good thing that Christ has done, God accepts us and gives us the gift of life. (Contemporary English Version)



    18Therefore, as one trespass[1] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[2] leads to justification and life for all men. (English Standard Version)



    18Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (NKJV)
     
  3. Bible-boy

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    I think your syllogism is invalid because both premisses contain flawed logic.

    First, is all doctrine bound by God to be true? Clearly not that is why Paul warned against teachers of false doctrine. So if I can produce one false doctrine that people believe to be true your statement is proven invalid.

    Second, does everyone believe that Christ died for their sins? If that is the case why do we all know people who refuse to believe it even to their dying day?
     
  4. Yelsew

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    First, and foremost, God does not make, or establish doctrine! He does not bind anyone to believe any particular doctrine. ALL doctrine is MAN-MADE! Doctrine is that which man adhere's to and teaches others to adhere to! God does not "bind" anyone to believe, except, as some believe He did to Paul, who, as Saul a devout Pharasee, already believed in God!

    God's word says, 'to wit', "here is the truth, believe it and live!" Man then decides for himself whether or not he will believe it. Thus man self-determines whether or not he will live eternally, or face judgement and die the second death.
    NO ONE is forced, or bound, to believe anything! Period! End of argument!

    Man believes what man wants to believe based on a myriad of factors. The scriptures tell us that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. The scriptures also say that Jesus was raised from the dead, 'alive in the flesh' for mankind to see, touch, and hear, so that, man by believing in HIM, can also live after the first, physical death that All men are subject to. We, mankind, choose to believe that Jesus' death was at our own personal and individual expense, to pay for our own individual and personal sins. That belief is probably the result of the Holy Spirit convicting us personally of our sins. Believing, which is 'man having faith in God', is the single stipulation God "forces" upon man in order for man to obtain God's free gift of Eternal life. Believing is the insurmountable condition that man must have to receive the gift, without it, no Salvation! In a nutshell, here's God's plan: "Everyone who believes in God gets saved, if you want to get saved, you will believe in the Savior (God), even on his name! NO ONE who does not believe gets saved!" End of nutshell!
    Scriptures clearly state that God is true, God is sovereign, who then can stand and refute the words of Jesus, God's only Son, who said that His death is payment (atonement) for "the sins of the world". Paul tells us "For all have sinned...". thus Jesus' death is interpreted as meaning 'the sins of ALL mankind throughout time'. "Thus it is TRUE that Christ died for ALL men, so that by believing in Jesus (believing in God), no man is bound to pay the penalty for his sins, which is death, but that each one who does believe, passes from death (bypasses judgement and death) and proceeds directly into life eternal with Jesus.
     
  5. Me2

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    Gods Logic is rational. It makes sense. Perfect sense

    ALL Mankind was placed into "death" by God. unwilling

    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    God will in his own timing deliver every man, woman, and child from death.
    Man is made to become the image of Christ.
    God will deliver us into that image.

    We may struggle against his plans. We can be a willing part that assists our brothers and sisters become reconciled into their appointed image…or not.

    Either way. We will be reconciled.


    Gods plans are big.
    Most folks have to take a step back, to see.

    Most just need to stop and listen to the Good news that Gods has given to all man.

    Good news. What is that?
    That man is made to be completed in the image of Christ.
    All men.
    Throughout all history.

    That Gods Plans are not finished yet.
    All will have the same opportunities to be completed in the image of Christ.
    What opportunities?.

    Of becoming a completed and fulfilled creature made by God into the image of Christ.


    Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
    Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
    Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
    Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Do you realize that every man woman and child will have to experience death. To be deliver into Life.
    They will have to understand that they have been resurrected and also acknowledge before all that through the Power of Our father….they have defeated death

    And that Jesus Christ is Lord…I mean,..Jesus Christ “in them” is Lord over “all” enemies.

    Mankind is the Living witnesses of His works. We are living testimonies of Gods Love.

    Yet ,We are his army, that will defeat every power against righteousness till no more enemies exist.

    Meaning man will defeat death by not allowing it to have a purpose against him..

    Every Man, woman, and child will acknowledge and render death..powerless.

    Every human being will have to realize that they are created to be the image of man that God has initially designed Mankind to become.

    Through self expression.

    Just try imagining every man woman and child becoming Christ.
    (Oops Im sorry. I mean being placed “in Christ”..1 Co 15:22)

    Wherever the head goes..so goes the body. Every cell.

    Now the notion for everyone being “bound”
    Try thinking of a contract. A marriage “contract”.
    We really cant teach it to anyone fully.

    They have to experience “it” for themselves to “believe it”.

    Me2
     
  6. Felix

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    Thanks for your responses everyone!!

    Dear GH,

    Interpreting Rom 5:18 is not an easy task for anyone! We all agree that "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men". Nobody disputes that 'all men' means every human being without exception. However, what exactly "through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" means, is not so clear! First, what does 'justification of life' mean, second, does 'all men' in this second cluase equal with 'all men' in the first clause? If it does, than everyone without exception has the justification of life. What is this 'justification of life'? Is everyone saved than? You see, either way, this verse has some serious implications if we isolate it from the rest of Scripture (what we shouldn't do!).

    Dear BibleboyII,

    I believe you might have completely misunderstood the whole syllogism. I will try to refraze it here, so we all have a clearer picture:
    1. "... God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent" - Acts 17:30 In other words, God wants everyone to repent and therefore everything that God would have all men to believe must be true!
    2. Every man is to believe that Christ died for him (a major part of repentance, wouldn't you agree).
    3. Therefore, the statement that Christ died for every men must be true!

    Dear Yelsew,

    God wants everyone to believe the Gospel doesn't He? When you say that 'NO ONE is...to believe anything'...what do you mean?

    Dear Me2,

    If I correctly read between your lines, it seems to me that according to your words, every single individual ultimately will be saved! Is this what you believe?


    I am working on this issue because I do not yet have a clear cut conviction about this matter myself! The way I see it, the crucial question is what exactly did Christ accomplish on the Cross?
    Did He or did He not actually pay the penalty for our sins! If He did, did He do it absolutely or was it based on a condition (that man will believe)? Basically, I need to hear a fine definition of 'Christ's Substitutionary Death on the Cross' from both sides of the camp!


    Thank you
     
  7. Yelsew

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    Me2,
    Me2,
    When God created man, he did not create an ETERNAL BEING!
    One must conclude based on the scriptures that man was created to live for a period of time then die, else there would be no banishment from the garden to prevent eating from the "tree of Life" and living eternally. Therefore, God did not have to establish death as the penalty for sin, he established death as part of His design for man.

    Yes, I agree Paul did say what he said, but perhaps Paul did not have, or know the whole truth of Genesis, and even today when we have all the writings, many a man overlooks or rejects this very small part of the whole. God DID NOT create man to be an ETERNAL BEING! That is why ETERNAL LIFE is a Gift to man, to those who believe in God and in Jesus His Son. Eternal life is a reward for believing in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    Does sin kill? Well yes, of course it does, because it is what separates unholy man from Holy God. But truly, it is lack of faith in God that kills, for those who die without faith in God face judgment and shall be cast into the lake of fire, the second death! That is why God gave us Jesus, the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world, so that the sins that we humans commit have been paid for in His blood, and are not held against us, which if man had to pay the penalty, would negate the power of our faith in God which saves us. For those who have no faith in God, sins are of little consequence anyway for they, by their unbelief, are judged already (John 3:18) and therefore get thrown into the lake of fire, the second and final death!

    It is life that we should be concerned with! God established that Life Eternal shall be freely given to those who believe in Him, and those who believe in His Son, Jesus, even on His name (John 3:16), and live according to their belief. That means those who by believing, repent from sinning, and produce the fruits of the spirit that believes in God. Then and only then do man's works come into the picture, because man's works do not produce salvation, they merely earn rewards for those believers who do them.

    Scriptures do not support this statement! Revelation 20:14,15. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Please take note that the Second Death is the final mention of death in the scriptures! It is final, and there is no recovery from it.
    We do struggle against Him, and Yes we do proselytize our "brothers and sisters" both for and against our own faith in Him.
    Scripture does not support your position unless you completely reject the books of Genesis and Revelation (the alpha and omega of the bible). You have already rejected Genesis 3:20-24 by declaring that it is sin that causes man to die, when in truth, "God made us that way" God made man to live and die, that is, God gave man an unspecified period of time to live our lives, but having a definite end to our lives. Man was not and is not Eternal until man's spirit believes, by man's God given ability, in God and in Jesus, His Son. Then when the flesh dies, man who is spirit in the image of God is set free from the flesh to either enter the very presence of Jesus, or to go before the judgment throne then be cast into the lake of fire.
    God's plan was established before creation, it is not evolutionary, changing as we go along. God's plan is being executed (carried out) as planned.
    The good news is that God gives eternal life to all who believe in Him and his Son Jesus. The Good news is that ALL the sins of the World are paid for by the ONCE of ALL atonement of God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ! We are already made in the image of God, Jesus is God, so we do not need to be "completed in the image of Christ". It is our Faith in God that God requires of us before He gives us his Gift of Salvation. That is Good news!

    God's plan is complete and has been complete from the foundation of the world. The "execution of the plan" is an on-going effort, and will continue while God extends his Grace toward man. Once God's time of Grace is ended, so will every opportunity for man to hear and believe God's word. Man is already made in the Image of God, but failes to behave in accordance with that image. READ THE BIBLE Me2! Nowhere in the bible does it say that ALL MANKIND WILL BE SAVED! It does say that it is God's will that none should be lost, but not that all will be saved. The bible says that ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN GOD are spared from the judgment with its subsequent "swim in the lake of fire".
    "they have defeated death? NO! they have not defeated death, Jesus alone defeated death. Because Jesus defeated death, we can have life by believing in Him.

    Man cannot in any way shape or form defeat death! "It is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment". The only way man can defeat death is for man to defeat God who established that man has a predetermined time for life in this natural realm which ends in death!

    By this statement you negate Revelation 20:14,15. Are you sure you want to stand by your statement?

    You obviously meant "becoming Christ", or you would not have left it there in place. You are a false teacher, an Antichrist! In the name of Jesus, stop LYING!

    The flesh is of no value, the Spirit gives life to the flesh!

    Are you saying it is a matter of BELIEF?
     
  8. Yelsew

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    Felix,
    God wants everyone to believe the Gospel doesn't He? When you say that 'NO ONE is...to believe anything'...what do you mean?</font>[/QUOTE]God gave to man, in the creation, the ability to believe. He did not specify that man can only believe in Him or in His Word. He allows man to believe what seems believeable to man. It is this simple truth by which man is making tremendous strides in technology. Basically, whatever man can conceive and believe, man can achieve. I believe there are some limitations to this, but generally understand it to be true.

    Yes, it is God's will that man believe in Him and believe his Word, and believe in Jesus whom God the father sent unto man. But, God does not limit man in what man can believe, and God allows man to believe anything man desires to believe. That is what persuasion and proselytizing is all about! That is what Missionary work is all about! Those of us who believe in Jesus, are to do all we can to persuade others to believe as we do.

    Hope this helps your understanding.
     
  9. Felix

    Felix
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    Hello everyone,

    I would like to kindly ask you to keep your posts relatively short and to the point. It is amazing how quickly we can drift from our original topic. If you wish to promote different ideas feel free to start a new thread. Otherwise please share your thoughts on the questions at hand. We are trying to discuss our Lord's Substitutionary Atonement with all of its implications.

    Thank you [​IMG]
     
  10. GH

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  11. Yelsew

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    This does not mean that ALL will be saved, but rather that by the Atonement for the sins of the world, Jesus made it possible for all mankind to be saved.

    Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world is like God's grace. Both are given equally to all mankind, the just and the unjust alike.

    Grace does not save!
    Atonement does not save!
    Both Grace and Atonement enable man to have faith unto salvation.

    As I've often stated before, Grace and atonement are the environment that God established for His redemption of man. In that God created environment of Grace with atonement, man hears God's word, believes in God, grows in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and through faith, sustained to the end of the natural life, passes from the first death into life eternal with Jesus. Conversely those who do not have sustained faith in God, do not pass from the first death into life eternal with Jesus, but rather are judged then cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

    So, the point of Romans 5:18 is this. Through the one man Adam, sin came to man, but it did not make all men sinners, but rather it made all men prone to sin, we each sin our own sins. In Jesus, the penalty for any and all sin, which is death, was "paid for us by Jesus". Thus mankind is Justified by Jesus' Once-for-All death. Justification means "Just-as-if-I'd-died for my own sins". God's mandated death penalty for sin is paid for in one man, Jesus! Man is now no longer under the death penalty for sin!. I am therefore Justified before God, washed clean from all iniquity by the blood of His precious Son, Jesus, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

    The question must be then, Does Jesus' Justification of mankind save mankind? I find Nothing in scriptures where justification is equated to salvation. Justification must have occured in order for man to escape the penalty for sin in order for man to be saved. Virtually the whole bible declares that individual Faith in God (OT) and Faith in Jesus (NT) is what saves the individual. Grace and Justification enable human Faith in God. Faith in God saves! One's faith put's that one's name in the Book of Life! If your name is not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14.15.

    Said differently, If no one believed in Jesus, then no one would be saved, and Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world would be for naught. But because the one man, Jesus, atoned for the sins of the world that were introduced through the one man Adam, Sin is no longer put forth as a cause for man's death! Therefore, FAITH ALONE is what determines each man's destiny, whether it be Life eternal with Jesus the redeemer because of your faith in God, or the second and final death because you had no faith in God.

    PS: There is nothing that man can do to justify himself before the judgment throne of God!
     
  12. GH

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    This does not mean that ALL will be saved, but rather that by the Atonement for the sins of the world, Jesus made it possible for all mankind to be saved.

    Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world is like God's grace. Both are given equally to all mankind, the just and the unjust alike.

    Grace does not save!
    Atonement does not save!
    Both Grace and Atonement enable man to have faith unto salvation.

    As I've often stated before, Grace and atonement are the environment that God established for His redemption of man. In that God created environment of Grace with atonement, man hears God's word, believes in God, grows in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and through faith, sustained to the end of the natural life, passes from the first death into life eternal with Jesus. Conversely those who do not have sustained faith in God, do not pass from the first death into life eternal with Jesus, but rather are judged then cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

    So, the point of Romans 5:18 is this. Through the one man Adam, sin came to man, but it did not make all men sinners, but rather it made all men prone to sin, we each sin our own sins. In Jesus, the penalty for any and all sin, which is death, was "paid for us by Jesus". Thus mankind is Justified by Jesus' Once-for-All death. Justification means "Just-as-if-I'd-died for my own sins". God's mandated death penalty for sin is paid for in one man, Jesus! Man is now no longer under the death penalty for sin!. I am therefore Justified before God, washed clean from all iniquity by the blood of His precious Son, Jesus, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

    The question must be then, Does Jesus' Justification of mankind save mankind? I find Nothing in scriptures where justification is equated to salvation. Justification must have occured in order for man to escape the penalty for sin in order for man to be saved. Virtually the whole bible declares that individual Faith in God (OT) and Faith in Jesus (NT) is what saves the individual. Grace and Justification enable human Faith in God. Faith in God saves! One's faith put's that one's name in the Book of Life! If your name is not found in the Book of Life, you are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14.15.

    Said differently, If no one believed in Jesus, then no one would be saved, and Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world would be for naught. But because the one man, Jesus, atoned for the sins of the world that were introduced through the one man Adam, Sin is no longer put forth as a cause for man's death! Therefore, FAITH ALONE is what determines each man's destiny, whether it be Life eternal with Jesus the redeemer because of your faith in God, or the second and final death because you had no faith in God.

    PS: There is nothing that man can do to justify himself before the judgment throne of God!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Yelsew,

    Did ALL die when Adam sinned? Did anyone have a choice in this death? All have sinned and have gone astray. All are bound in unbelief so that God can have mercy on all.

    What do YOU have that HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN TO YOU?

    Yes by faith we believe - but you can't take credit for it for even that faith comes from God and is a GIFT from the Holy One. Given in amounts that only He can measure. Can you give Him the glory, Yelsew? Or must you lift up your faith as your Savior? I'm just wondering, brother, for I condemn no one.

    Peace of Christ to you, GH
     
  13. Yelsew

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    GH,
    GH, Before Adam sinned, Adam and Eve were already condemned to die. God did not create eternal beings when he created Adam and Eve, else He would not have banished them from the Garden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life as they did the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
    So to say that Adam's sin is what brought death is a falsehood! God made man to die.

    FAITH! God has no faith to give to man. God has no need to have faith, He has no "object" of faith, for there is no one or no thing that God is required to have faith in. He HOPE's for nothing, and He SEES everything!
    They all say the same thing. Does your God require FAITH? Mine does not! Since He does not have a need for faith, He has no faith, If He has no faith, then He has none to give to man! YET! Faith is the only thing God requires of man for man to be saved into eternal life! So you figure it out. You did not receive your faith from God, so where did you get your faith?
    So if man does not hear, then man cannot have faith! Also, If man does hear with the senses but not with the spirit, man still has no faith for faith is of the spirit...man's spirit! Not my plan, but God's!

    Prove your statement! I give God the glory for making such a simple plan for man to be given Eternal life. God did ALL the work, put everything man needs in His Holy Word, the allows man to respond in the only manner that God gave to man to respond, and that is through FAITH! Faith requires no effort, so No works! No man can claim to have more faith than another, faith does not come in levels, one either has faith or one does not have faith. Nothing to achieve, nothing by which one can claim credit. It's like the little lightbulb in the brain, it is either on or off, there are no in-betweens.

    Who can "lift up your faith as your savior?" Faith is a condition of your spirit that you either have or do not have. There is nothing man can boast about in faith! Man expended no effort to have faith, what tools did man have to make faith?

    Think about it GH, </font>
    • God has no faith to give to man</font>
    • man cannot earn or make faith</font>
    • man expends no energy to have faith</font>
    • faith requires no "natural sustainance" to exist</font>
    • humanity is the only species ever spoken of in scripture in conjunction with Faith</font>
    • AND, God, the creator, requires man to have faith, something not given by God, for man to receive something from God, a free gift</font>
    Salvation is the FREE GIFT that God gives to ALL mankind who have FAITH. (I paraphrase Eph 2:8,9)For by God's Grace are ye saved through your faith in God, and not by anything you have done. Salvation is a free gift from God, not of, or earned by, works lest any man should boast.
     
  14. KenH

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    Not true, Yelsew. Not man, not animals were to die. Man and animals were originally given only plants to eat. Man was not to kill animals to eat or for clothing.

    It's only after The Fall that things changed.

    Your theological understanding is very flawed.
     
  15. Me2

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    Yelsew,

    Open your eyes man.

    mans "faith" represents DEATH.

    God introduces us to the law.
    the law delivers our spirit into death,
    upon our recognition that we are sinners and sin
    brings death.

    mans spirit cannot be resurrected from death.
    that is its FINAL destiny.


    anything we hold onto is dead. and cannot be used as a gift (or bribe) to be given to God.

    only Christs resurrected spirit delivers us from death unto life.
    It is in His Life (in heaven) where we are "in Christ". It is HIS faith that gives us life.

    Any faith we possess in Eternal life is "of Christ".

    If we say we have faith (of self) (or outside of Christ Faith) it only brings us to a recognition..that we are still in death and have not been resurrected. we are mentally fooling ourselves.

    if we say we are "in Christ". we have been resurrected from death and are in Eternal life.

    His life. 100%..that means we live by His faith.
    of what HE believes to be true.


    Me2
     
  16. GH

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    Dear Yelsew,

    When you heard the word and believed, did you decide to follow Christ or were you blown away by His awesomeness? And if you were blown away by His awesomeness, did you have a choice after SEEING AND KNOWING.......HIM?

    I'm just wondering again........are you following a set of principles or have you been struck down by His majesty? Struck down with the death of the old man and raised up again - that death being swallowed up in LIFE. Are you eating from this tree of LIFE, brother? Or are you stuck in the tree of good and evil land?

    For you see, it was the tree of good and evil that God DID NOT WANT A and E TO EAT FROM. Man's faith, human faith feeds from this tree. The Spirit feeds from the Tree of Life......God Himself.

    GH
     
  17. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    Not true, Yelsew. Not man, not animals were to die. Man and animals were originally given only plants to eat. Man was not to kill animals to eat or for clothing.

    It's only after The Fall that things changed.

    Your theological understanding is very flawed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then what do we do with Genesis 3:22-24? The scripture clearly says "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever" But look at verse 22 where it says that "man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil". God did not want man who sins to become an eternal being. Thus, He removed them from the place where the Tree of Life was planted. One must conclude that God did not create man to be an eternal being!

    Now, I can be convinced otherwise, perhaps, if you can show me a scripture that says, man was created to be ETERNAL! If you cannot show such a scripture, then you to must conclude what I've concluded, that Man WAS NOT created to be ETERNAL!

    Also consider this. What is God's "free" Gift to man? </font>
    • Grace? Show me quantity of the Grace that God gives to man.</font>
    • Mercy? Produce a quantity of mercy that God has given to man</font>
    • Love? Can you give to me any of God's Love that He gave to you?</font>
    • Justice? Can you hand me some of God's Justice that He gave to you?</font>
    • Faith? If God gives faith to man, then you should be able to hand me a handful of it.</font>
    None of the ATTRIBUTES of God, grace, mercy, love, and justice are transferrable commodities. They are instead things that are true of the one possessing them as part of that one's being, and essence. They are all behavior constraining ATTRIBUTES.

    If you have any of them, and I'm sure you do, they were implanted in you in the creation and they are your ATTRIBUTES that God created man to have in order for man to be made in the image of God.

    Faith on the other hand is not something that God put into man at any time. God quite simply has no faith to give to man. God does not hope, hope is necessary when knowledge is lacking, God knows ALL there is to know. God is not blind to anything,He sees all that is and he sees all that is hidden from man. So God does not have faith to give to man. But he does require man to have faith in Him, in order to receive the Free Gift that God gives to those who have faith.

    So then, What is the Free Gift that God gives?
    Yes, Salvation is the Free Gift of God given to ALL who have Faith in Him, through Jesus. Faith is the only thing that man can possess of his own that is not given to Him by God!

    Salvation from what? Sin? NO! FROM DEATH!
    Salvation to what? PASS FROM DEATH INTO LIFE ETERNAL!

    If God created man to be eternal from the very beginning, why was there a "Tree of Life"? And why was man moved away from that "Tree of Life" whose fruit if eaten would make one have eternal life?

    I invite you to prove this premise wrong! Perhaps by attempting to do so, you will discover this wonderful truth!

    Finally, There is only one thing that is part of man that makes him acceptable to God, and that is something that God requires but does not Himself possess...FAITH. Man alone is capable of faith which is, "the substance of that which is hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." It is, perhaps, the ability to have faith that separates man from all other species in God's creation.
     
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    When I heard and believed, it was this "new faith" that I possessed in me that enabled me to choose to follow the teachings of Jesus the Christ. NO! I was not "blown away", I was drawn very near to Him in all of his Glory. YES! it is my choice to remain "in HIM". My faith in Him based on the Word of God is sufficient to keep me following HIM. I do however, have the ability within me to change my persuasion. God has not taken anything away from me, He has given me the power and authority to use everything that He created in me to the utmost of my ability to Love Him, to Obey Him, and to serve Him. He does not prevent me from changing my persuasion in any manner except that He warns me in Scripture that If I do "fall away" through some false persuasion, that I can lose the Gift that He has promised me which is SALVATION from DEATH! or stated in a better way, SALVATION INTO LIFE ETERNAL!

    Where do we find in scripture where Jesus the Christ "strikes down" those who believe in him and have faith in Him? The Christ has not killed my human spirit. Quite the contrary, He has brought to me new life, life more abundant. I know that because my flesh is still alive. It is human spirit that quickens the human flesh. In other words, my human spirit is what is the life of the flesh. Without my human spirit my flesh would be dead, lifeless. So, No, my human spirit has not been killed, but it certainly has been revitalized in Christ! What an urban renewal project that was! I now have God given authority over my sins because I am in Jesus, I am no longer slave to sin because of the Authority my faith in Jesus gives to me. When I sin, I confess my sin in order to receive forgiveness and cleansing from it. I then repent from doing that sin again, and the more I resist the sin, the less often it comes knocking! Soon enought it ceases to come around, and through the Power of the Most High God that sin has been defeated in my life.

    My spirit did not die, but it certainly has a new cleaned up look and feel, thanks to Jesus! Did the "old man's desires" die? Yes, for the most part the old man is completely dead, I still have sin to deal with, as you all do also! But Jesus paid the penalty for my sins, and yours, so they are not a factor as to the condition of my spirit which is "sold out" in faith to Jesus. When this flesh that I have gives up, my spirit will be accepted by Jesus, for it is in him that I place my faith. To be absent from this flesh is to be present with THE LORD! Not to face judgment, but to have everlasting life.

    As for "a set of principles vs being struck down?" I cannot grasp any meaning from that, so I'll not respond further.

    Think it through GH, There were two trees in the center of the Garden. A&E had been deceived into eating from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not the Tree of Life. If they had eaten from the tree of life first, would we be here? No, it was not in God's plan for it to happen that way, so it didn't. We are who and what we are by God's plan, not our own...but he does give us the choice, life? or death?...choose life!
     
  19. KenH

    KenH
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    Yelsew,

    If Adam had not sinned he would not have died as he would have had continuous access to the Tree of Life.
     
  20. KenH

    KenH
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    Yes, we would be here. Why wouldn't we be here?
     

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