Featured Sympathy for the Arminian, Part 3

Well, no one is ABLE to believe in Jesus unless he has heard of Jesus, so it is an inability in that sense.

You are reading inability into this scripture. He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear means that the statement being made applies to anyone who will listen.

Yes, some people will not listen, but this is not because they are not able, but because they are not willing. However, they could be willing if they chose to be so. If a person cannot choose, then he has no will.

I do not appreciate you trying to define words for me. Calvinists are the LAST persons who should define words to others.

No one is able to believe what they do not know, so it is a form of inability.

Again, lack of knowledge is an inability, you cannot believe what you do not know.

Actually, it proves the opposite. Jesus spoke in parables for the express purpose of preventing these persons from understanding and believing. It was a judgment against them.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Verse 15 refutes your view. It shows that these persons do have the ability to see or understand God's word, but they have "closed their eyes".

A person who is blind is unable to see. A person who closes his eyes is unwilling to see, not unable.

You make such a big deal over the word inability. Is closing your eyes inability?

 

Winman

2 cor 4 proves it....for any who understand it.
God in creation acted in a supernatural way...He does so again in the new creation...

I show you one of the clearest passages ever written...you look and do not "see" it.....What can I say????

 

You didn't show me anything, 2 Corinthians 4 has 18 verses. Which one do you say proves man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe?

And don't give me this "for any who understand it" baloney, I understand scripture as well as you do, maybe better.

 

That interpretation renders null and void the words of Jesus that demands something other than information must be "given" them which was "given" to others. The information was given to both but it is what was not "given" to some that prevented them from understanding what they heard with their ears.

You are not paying close attention to his words in verse 14. The ability to see and hear which he declares they do indeed have is not spiritual ability because it lacks understanding and perception of divine truth. Hence, he is referring only to their NATURAL ability to understand and perceive. Spirtiual things require spiritual ability to understand and perceive (1 Cor. 2:14).

The condemnation in verse 16 refers to the reaction of their NATURAL abiltites to understand and perceive spiritual things. When exposed to light their NATURAL abilties react in resistance and rejection of the light (Rom. 8:7).

The ears they close and the eyes they shut are their NATURAL GIVEN abilties for comprehension and understanding. This is the normal reaction of the fleshly mind set - Romans 8:7

What must be "given" to them by God is something other than their NATURAL ABILITIES to comprehend and understand spiritual truths. Such was not "given" unto them by the Father but it was "given" to His disciples. According to your interpetation nothing needs to be "given" by God to anyone at all as they are all equally capable of hearing and responding to the truth.

 

Why, when Calvinists make statements like this, do they almost always fail to reference this supposed scripture? Don't you think your argument would be far more convincing if you showed evidence? Saying that the scriptures teach a man is unable and unwilling to see does not make it so. Show this scripture.

I would say "seeing" is more synonymous with understanding than believing. When someone understands something they say, "I can see that", or "I see that now". When someone believes they say, "I believe" or "I think that is true".

Agreed.

Agreed. But the reason he used earthly examples is so that men could understand them.

Yes, he could now physically see, but we do not know if this man was spiritually blind, you are assuming that.

Again, you are assuming the man did not have the ability to believe. Show where the scriptures say that. The scriptures clearly say he was physically blind from birth, they say nothing about his spiritual abilities.

Many of the Pharisees believed on Jesus, Nicodemus believed on Jesus.

Again, some Pharisees believed, but secretly. That is why Nicodemus came at night.

Yes, their unwillingness was their fault, but they had the ability to be willing. The will cannot be defined without freedom of choice. If you have no freedom of choice then you have no will. Your will is doing what you choose to do.

Well, all men are born in darkness, they are born in ignorance. No man is born knowing the gospel. It is teaching the gospel that enlightens a man and enables him to believe.

That is the question. I disagree and believe all men can choose to do good or evil. Cain was unregenerate, yet God said he had the ability to do good or evil.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

There is no "if" in your view, you believe unregenerated man is born unable to do good. But God implied Cain could do both good or evil, and that if he chose to do good he would be accepted. God had not passed over him.

Not necessarily.

That's actually not true, but I know what you are trying to say.

It depends on what is meant by "blind". A man in a dark room is blind, but turn on the light and he can see. A man is born without knowledge of Jesus, so it is impossible for him to believe. But tell him the gospel (turn on the light) and he can believe.

And this is how scriptures show men are blind, not that they are unable to see, but that they sit in darkness.

Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

The reason men are blind is because they sit in darkness. It is like being in a dark room. You cannot see without light. But turn on the light and a man can see. And this is how scripture describes man's blindness, as sitting in darkness.

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

As Paul implied in Romans 10:14, no man can believe what he has not heard. It is like a man sitting in darkness, he cannot see. But tell a man the gospel, and this is just like turning on the light in the room, and now the man can see.

Well, only God has the true light. A man cannot possibly believe in Jesus unless God reveals this truth to him.

I disagree, Jesus did not say ALL men love darkness, some men came to the light.

Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus did not say all men love darkness and will not come to the light. He implied that at least some men desire truth and come to the light.

Your posts are too long, I need to cut this in half.

 

Continued from last post (shorten it up please)

There are two factors involved in sight. A man must have the physical ability to see, and there must be light. A man with the physical ability to see in a perfectly dark room is blind, he cannot see. But turn on the light and he can see.

And this is how man's spiritual blindness is described in scripture, as being in darkness. No man can see in darkness. But light a candle, and then a man can see.

Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

Jesus is speaking of the word of God here. He is saying to tell the world, it is like lighting a candle so that all men can see.

This is what you fail to understand.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Yes, many do refuse to believe they are blind, but not all. Many people are quite aware they are spiritually blind. I have prayed for years that God would help me understand the scriptures, I am quite aware that I do not completely understand them. And many millions of men would say the same thing.

Everything was going good until you submitted this utter falsehood. The grace that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

You really should compare what you are being taught to scripture, somebody has been teaching you lies.

The word of God will teach any man who is willing to listen and learn. Jesus told his disciples to take heed how they hear, to those that hear more will be given, but to those who do not hear, even what was given them will be taken away.

You could have the "teacher of the year" teach your class, but if you do not pay attention and study you will fail the subject.

It gives them the light so that they are no longer in darkness and can see.

Not so, God gives light so men can see.

Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You see, Jesus is called the true Light. He provides light so men can see.

Yes.

I would strongly disagree.

This verse is not saying you cannot believe, it is saying you cannot ENTER heaven unless you have been born again. It is like telling a prisoner they will never see the light of day again, it means they will never be released to freely walk outside again.

False, no man can be spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven, and no man is forgiven his sins until he first believes.

You cannot form doctrine on hymns. Many hymns are full of serious error.

 

Still no response!

 

You are bending the text to fit Calvinism - but it only refutes it.

First of all Christ is speaking of the Jewish leaders and others that rejected his teaching in the previous chapter - Matt 12.

And as we know from John 1 regarding those who rejected His teaching ... "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1.

And prior to Matt 12.... Matt 11

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.


Notice that Christ points to wicked cities saying that they would repent with the same out reach to them. He does not say "you were never given the ability to hear by God but God did give Tyre and Sidon that ability".


You cannot shoehorn Calvinism into the Matt 13 text because of the context in Matt 11 and 12.



in Christ,


Bob

 

That is your opinion which you fail to prove by anything stated in this post.

Wrong, even as you later admit it included whole cities that he rebuked and the nation as a whole as you later admit in this same post.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

So, it does not refer to a special class of sinners but to sinners in general existing among the audiance he ministered unto.

In other words, God knew they would repent if given more light but chose not to give it to them? How does that fit Arminianism and "love" defined by Arminianism???????

In other words, you have NOTHING to offer to disprove a single word of my exposition.

 

is the Gospel ALONE sufficient to have a sinner come unto Jesus and get saved, or MUST the Spiit also do a working on their hearts and minds then?

 

the "big deal" is more tht you do not!

As many as received Him, they were given the right to be calle dthe children of God....

BUT
they were born not by act of human will, but by the Will of God!

 

The Apostle Paul answers this:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

More fully....the Spirit of God works THROUGH the gospel as it is preached. The preaching of the gospel is always attended with power. There is no such scenario as the gospel unattended by the power of the Spirit.

 

So the majority of jewish persons born since jesus time have continued to deny him, was this due to ?

 

Seriously, you've got to stop making things up in your head. Please post a link to someone claiming "man can see spiritually by his own power", or SHUT UP!

 

So you are saying that NONE here ever denied original sin, denied the Gospel alone is sufficient to produce faith by itself, that we willingly come to Christ, we choose Him, that we are born still good, and make a choice to become sinners etc?

 

That's correct. :thumbsup:

 

You seem to be confused, Jesus said his words were spirit, and they were life.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The word of God is a manifestation of the Spirit. You cannot have the word of God without the presence and influence of the Spirit. God's word is perfect TRUTH, and it is the truth that enables men to spiritually see, to understand spiritual matters, to set him free from darkness.

So, you seem not to understand that God's word is his Spirit. Go back and read John 6:63 until you understand it.

 

:wavey::wavey::thumbsup::thumbs:

DING DING! The gospel faithfully preached never exists in a Spiritless vacuum by very definition.

 

Yeshua1 doesn't understand that the word of God is like a light that enables men to see. He thinks a person has to be ZAPPED in addition to the word of God. This view is very similar to the mystical religions which so heavily influenced the RCC and her daughters. It's MAGIC!