Sympathy for the Arminian

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Jul 10, 2013.

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  1. Protestant

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    I sympathize with the Arminian Christian. The God portrayed by the Calvinists is unfair. According to them He is not an ‘equal-opportunity employer-God.’ He does not call and employ all men equally to salvation. Instead He discriminates as to whom He will call and employ [elect]. Incredibly, His discrimination is not based on anything we can perceive. His choice of employees [the Elect] makes no earthly sense. It is not based on past job performance since all have failed miserably and fallen short of the glory of God. Nor is it based on family connections. The Jews had the esteemed patriarchs in their blood line, yet by far most Jews were rejected. It is not based on the religious propensity of the candidate. Nicodemus didn’t qualify, though he was the most prestigious religious man in all Israel. Nor is God’s choice based on our friendship and support of His Son since He died for us while we were still His enemies.

    Furthermore, to make matters worse, His election is not based on foreseen future faith or good works. God had the audacity to elect Jacob over Esau (a perfectly reasonable candidate) before either was born….before either had done good or evil. In fact, His election of Jacob (and all other Elect) was before the foundation of the world. It was even before Prevenient Grace had come into their lives -- before they could will to come or not will to come to Christ. Where is the fairness in that, I ask?

    And last, but not least, how fair is it to have the Gospel preached to those whom God wills to not give Holy Spirit effectual regenerating grace in order that the spiritually dead sinner may spiritually hear, see and believe? Is that grace not owed all, since God loves all His creation? (John 3:16). Is not His withholding of saving grace a sure sign of His unrighteousness? How can man be held accountable for that which God does not will to give him, but which he allegedly desperately needs?

    I, therefore, sympathize with the Arminians’ version of God. Their God is fair. He calls all men to Christ, giving them an equal chance to believe or reject the Savior. He is a just God who gives to every man exactly what he deserves….whether salvation or judgment, depending on the free will choice man makes. The Parable of the Vineyard Workers exemplifies this perfectly. God is a just employer who does not discriminate, calling all men for an equal opportunity salvation. Furthermore, He pays His workers exactly what is right and fair because He is a good God. However, I do believe there is a small problem with His giving the same wage earned by the all-day worker to the worker who labored only one hour. I can’t help but agree with the first worker that it was unjust of the Lord to give the last worker that which he did not deserve or earn. To be fair and equitable the Lord should have also given the first worker more pay, though the Lord made no such promise.

    Fortunately that parable does not address the doctrine of the sovereign grace of God in election, whereby the Calvinists insist that God does no injustice in freely and mercifully giving to some sinners saving grace which they do not deserve, while righteously giving to other sinners the justice which they do deserve. Otherwise I might have to re-think the Arminian position, since I claim to be an obedient Christian who believes all the Lord reveals in His Word.
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Great, another arrogant "Calvinist".
     
  3. webdog

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    I smell a troll. Love how the calvinists completely shun the doctrone of justice throughout the Bible and red herring right to 'fairness'.
     
  4. Rippon

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    Instead of lobbing your pejoratives.-- Specifically address what you disagree with and why. You constantly throw your generalizations around,but they carry no substance.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    This is good....real good! Welcome:applause:
     
  6. JohnDeereFan

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    ...to go along with all the ignorant and arrogant Finneyists here.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    The tone of his post is childish and a pejorative itself. But of course you already know that. Don't you?
     
  8. JohnDeereFan

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    ...says the guy who routinely insults Reformed believers.
     
  9. InTheLight

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    Nailed it. I did notice in this screed that the Arminian God was fair/unfair while the Calvinist God was just.
     
  10. Rippon

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    No,I sincerely do not know that. Try actually reading his post in its entirety instead of giving a typical RM knee-jerk reaction.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    Then you are blinded tremendously.
     
  12. Rippon

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    Okay, Mr. Log-in-the-eye.
     
  13. agedman

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    Benjamin should be well pleased with the OP for it is a prime example of true parody.

    I look forward to what "Protestant" has to offer the BB.

    Welcome, and thanks for the sense of humor you displayed!
     
  14. Benjamin

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    I sympathize with this Determinist’s stereotypical example of having poor reasoning skills.
    :smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. DrJamesAch

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    I sympathize with the Calvinist who don't realize just how close to Calvinism Jacobus Arminius really was. I have yet to see one Calvinist on here give any detailed explication of anything that Jacobus Arminius really believed, said or wrote.
     
  16. agedman

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    Why should we?

    What possible scriptural edification could come from such a pursuit when we have you hear to defend each point of Arminianistic thinking when you aren't busying yourself trying to invent diatribes against some perceived enemy in calvinism.

    There is fault in all views.

    I would rather that folks spend time discerning Scriptures and leaving off all the bickering over titles and camps.

    Two threads on "a passage many struggle" have been offered and both have degenerated into camp fights rather than discerning truth. Dome can't get through one post without proclaiming some defamatory remark about a view with which they don't agree - typical childish behavior and myopic thinking.

    Some consider faith a work of the flesh.

    Some consider faith a work of God.

    Frankly, I would rather God get all glory and honor than attempt to puff up any human "attribute" thinking it was pleasing and acceptable to a holy God. Some don't have that view.

    Perhaps your idea is the one who gets slammed the most or with the greatest fervor is beaten in the argument. Often we who are more tender hearted leave off posting because we no longer desire to see such foolishness.

    I will discuss the background of folks only enough to show a trend, demonstrate a view, or show support or lack for an idea. But the rest of it is just not worthy of what little breath and time I have left.
     
  17. Skandelon

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    There are several problems with the OP and I'll list the top two here:

    1. It presumes that all (or at least most) non-Calvinists are the 'classic Arminian' "foresight faith" brand. We are not. In fact, most Southern Baptists scholars are not that brand of Arminian and we affirm what is known as the "Corporate View of Election," which doesn't hyper individualize everything in the typical ego centric Western approach. The new Calvinists of today need to learn this view as many, based on my experience, have never actually vetted it.

    2. The OP presumes that the non-Calvinists objection to Calvinism has to do with our feeling that it is unfair of God to not provide salvation for all men.

    "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

    This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

    However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

    We don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

    It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!
     
    #17 Skandelon, Jul 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2013
  18. DrJamesAch

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    Why should you?? Because it is an enormously deceptive and dishonest tactic to gain converts to Calvinism by making the hearer think that if one of their beliefs resemble Arminianism of which they do not agree with, they must choose Calvinism by default. Thus Calvinism deliberately misrepresents Arminianism to gain converts.

    It is one thing to KNOW or at least have a good grasp of the opponents view and THEN explain how that view is wrong based on the Bible, but to blindly tell uninformed people that "That's heresy because it's ARMINIAN" when you don't even know what Arminians really believe is a bold face LYING tactic to gain credibility and converts.
     
  19. saturneptune

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  20. InTheLight

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    Just thought I'd post this.
     
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