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T.D.Jakes

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Onlybygrace, Nov 30, 2010.

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  1. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Preacher4truth, I guess one could see that I am setting myself up as the standard in my post, but I really am not. I've never made the claim to be "the" holy pastor of all pastors -- not in the least. I know my own limitations well and holiness as some see it is one of them. I'm not very "reverent" and I am not very "religious" in the normal way those words are used. I'm also not setting myself up as the standard by which other pastors are judged.

    What I have said is that I have seen horrific pastors in the pulpit in various sized churches, but more of them in small churches than in large, and that in many cases the reason the church IS small is because the leader of that church is a horrid pastor and leader. The standard of judgment is not my own -- it is the fruits that one would expect to find by an examination of Timothy, Titus or any of the other writings of Scripture.
     
    #41 glfredrick, Dec 1, 2010
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Well said. I want you to know I do agree with you about pastors, but brother, please, we have to check our spirits. let none of us get haughty, walk in wisdom brother, let's not give him opportunity. And I am not your enemy for saying these things to you, I hope you see, biblically, this attitude and admonishment is the opposite. God bless.

    :jesus:
     
    #42 preacher4truth, Dec 1, 2010
  3. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    The problem is that it doesn't have anything to do with merely seeing things differently than I do. Heck, I've got friends who are paedo-baptists, Arminians, charismatics, etc. I even have friends who are liberals and homosexuals.

    The difference is that they don't show contempt for God's Word the way you do.

    Jesus said, "If you love Me, then you'll keep My commandments". Why do you not keep the commandment about having nothing to do with false teachers?
     
    #43 JohnDeereFan, Dec 1, 2010
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Are any of your friends; charismatics, paedo-baptists, Arminians, including the "etc", and the liberals and homosexuals, false teachers? I can see one group for certain, that fits the description.
     
    #44 preacher4truth, Dec 1, 2010
  5. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    JohnDeerefan...

    Contempt. :tonofbricks:

    For Gods word. :tonofbricks::tonofbricks:

    Friend, I have been feeding on, living in, and internalizing Gods precious scriptures since 1982 when I was born again. It is my lamp and my shield and my standard for truth.

    If you dont believe me when I say that, fine. I really dont care what you think.

    But please stop slandering me publicly by saying that I have "contempt" for Gods precious word. Its my almost 30 year love affair with God and His word that enables be to listen to preachers and teachers of many different persuasions and discern truth from error when listening. Its called...

    (((Discernment.)))

    If you want to run into another room out of fear every time a preacher comes on that you disagree with, thats fine. Thats your buisiness.

    But I dont shrink back in fear of them, because I know the truth, and I can recognise error.

    Chill out...it'll do you good.
     
    #45 Alive in Christ, Dec 1, 2010
  6. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    No........
     
    #46 JohnDeereFan, Dec 1, 2010
  7. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Then why won't you follow its teachings about false teachers?

    Then how else do you explain your refusal to obey the Bible's teaching about false teachers?

    See, this is precisely what reveals your contempt for God's Word. By belittling God's instruction to have nothing to do with false teachers, you show that you are not following Christ's commands.

    I don't think you can. If you could really recognize error, then you would be able to recognize the error you're commiting when you refuse to submit to God's instruction.
     
    #47 JohnDeereFan, Dec 1, 2010
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    One more time johndeere.

    Are any of your friends; charismatics, paedo-baptists, Arminians, including the "etc", and the liberals and homosexuals, false teachers? I can see one group for certain, that fits the description.
     
    #48 preacher4truth, Dec 1, 2010
  9. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    I'm giving up on you JohnDeereFan...

    1st, I believe you are a legalist,(and its not good at all to be one of those) and you probably attend a hyper fundamentalist church, maybe even something close to Fred Phelps Kansas bunch.

    2nd, you are not being honest with Preacher4truth

    3rd, you are slandering me publically. That is no small sin.

    If you slander me one more time I am going to contact a moderator or Dr Bob.

    I'm through with you.


    If you will ask God to teach you truth regarding these issues, he will.
     
    #49 Alive in Christ, Dec 1, 2010
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    So the charismatics are not false teachers?
     
    #50 preacher4truth, Dec 1, 2010
  11. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace New Member

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    I think we need to clearly define what we each mean by "false teacher".


    Even though we are using the same terminology I get the distinct feeling we are not all on the same page.
    As far as I understand it, and I stand to be corrected, The false teachers that infiltrated the church in the new testament were not actually Christians. Their teachings were based on salvation by works, twisted interpretations of the person and work of Christ and an host of other unholy paraphanalia.

    A person who teaches in a church but who genuinely knows Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour surely cannot be lumped into the same category?

    Are we saying that every other pastor in every charismatic, pentecostal and mainline church today is actually a false teacher because their doctrine is off in places or we don't agree with them? If we are that's quite a statement!

    I have charismatic friends who believe things that I don't believe the Bible teaches but there is no doubt in my mind that they know and love the Lord and will sitting right next to me at the marriage supper of the lamb. In fact a lot of them will probably get more rewards than I will.

    Also, who can claim that their doctrine is 100% accurate in every facet? If you do, is it because it appears that way to you and you believe it to be so or because it actually is?

    We as Baptists have a number of practices in our churches that have questionable biblical origins to say the least e.g. voting, Sunday school, etc. Their origins are more cultural, historical, traditional and pragmatic than biblical or spiritual yet we defend them as truth. Since we teach and propagate those things is that not also a subversive form of false teaching since it denies the truth for the sake of comfort and convenience? Does that make us all false teachers to some degree?
     
    #51 Onlybygrace, Dec 2, 2010
  12. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    For that... Thanks. :thumbs:
     
    #52 glfredrick, Dec 2, 2010
  13. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    T.D.Jakes denies the Trinity. That makes him a false teacher. He's not teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you deny the Trinity, you aren't teaching Christianity.
     
    #53 matt wade, Dec 2, 2010
  14. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace New Member

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    That's very interesting wade, can you please provide some proof so that I can investigate it?
     
    #54 Onlybygrace, Dec 2, 2010
  15. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    #55 matt wade, Dec 2, 2010
  16. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace New Member

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    Matt I have looked at the Article T.D does not deny the existence of the trinity his interpretation of the concept of trinity differs from the traditional The truth of the matter is that none of us actually understand the doctrine of the trinity and neither can we explain it adequately. We believe it by faith but even in our believing we are limited.

    The Bible is a book that uses the limits of human language to try and impart divine revelation in the most accurate way and even though we know and believe it is inspired our grasping of divine revelation is limited by a number of variables including human language and our own finite intellect. For instance when they Bible says that the streets of heaven are paved with GOLD ARE THEY REALLY??? Or is the Bible using the concept of a precious metal being used for a common purpose as a way of showing how completely out our frame of reference heaven really is? Does this principle not apply to many other intangible concepts including the trinity? So if none of us really know how then can we afford to be dogmatic about that which we do not understand clearly or know for sure?
     
    #56 Onlybygrace, Dec 2, 2010
  17. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he does deny the trinity. In his own words:

    "We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration."

    That's the same as saying that there is one Matt Wade, but he is Father to his kids, Son to his parents, and Coach to his athletes.

    That is a denial of the trinity. I'm sorry you don't feel that way, maybe you've been listening to too much T.D. Jakes?
     
    #57 matt wade, Dec 2, 2010
  18. jaigner

    jaigner Active Member

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    On the one hand, you're right. Theological concepts like trinity are really just accommodations to help us apprehend the actual truth of the matter. They can be very slippery and easily become unbalanced.

    The problem is that he outlines a modalist position, which is one of the oldest heresies in the book.
     
    #58 jaigner, Dec 2, 2010
  19. Onlybygrace

    Onlybygrace New Member

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    i wil ignore the last low blow statement as it is a very weak attempt at emotionally charging a pertinent discussion and a diversionary tactic aimed at absolving you from dealing with any of the questions ive posed. The truth of the matter though is that the idea of the trinity can certainly be deduced from certain passages and the comparison of passages but there is no explicit or comprehensive teaching on it anywhere in the bible. So we are left to postulate regarding the specifics. It would be untruthful to say the least to insist that we do know and understand and that our view is the truth. It is not, it is like many things just a point of view. There is an absolute truth concerning the trinity but the reality is we dont have it. And what does it matter anyway? As long as i believe the father, son and h/S are all God, does it matter how they are all God?
     
    #59 Onlybygrace, Dec 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2010
  20. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    [

    I won't get into semantics on this. It only turns to "you're wrong" "no you're wrong" so why bother? In other words, this is my take on it. Not going to go back and forth. Maybe this will be helpful. That is what I seek and hope to do.


    We're Baptists.


    Of course they weren't Christians. But they claimed to be. But, if Judaizers make comment today, teach their doctrine, proselytize, the reaction of the politically correct culture that has effected the Gospel, and the Church, would in turn tell those who oppose such teachers as being false heretics and ministers of Satan, (who by the way transform THEMSELVES into ministers of light 2 Cor. 11:14,) that "just because they don't believe your way, doesn't mean they aren't born-again" and; "don't judge and love them as brothers because they are saved too." Thus this argument has serious flaws, because of the being church being affected by our culture, instead of our church effecting culture, as it should be.

    You can't determine if they genuinely know Christ. False teaching does tell us what we can know. Check Matthew 7.

    Off in places, such as when they teach Arminianism, in that, they teach that Christ only gave us a chance to be saved, after we accept Him? Such is the well known teaching of such. "Slain in the spirit?" "Doctrines of devils?" False"revelations?" Claiming to be apostles? I'd say that most of these churches embrace these things. Word-faith also? Making the Gospel into gain. These things are heresy. The verdict on those that embrace these things is clear.


    OK.


    It's not about being 100% correct in every facet. There are some things we just do not know. But it does boil down to Christ. And no matter what they say , or we say about that, it doesn't matter, it is what they or we teach (and how we live, but that is not proof in itself, look at the JW's for example.) That is really telling what they believe: what they teach. Therein lies the difference. For all of us.

    Not at all.

    :jesus:

    - Blessings
     
    #60 preacher4truth, Dec 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2010
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