T=Total Depravity

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by annie, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. annie

    annie
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am new to the board.
    I only learned of the Reformed Theology this year.
    I do believe that is what I am.
    Anxious to hear others thoughts on the T of TULIP.

    Total Depravity to me means in our natural state we are dead in our sins.
     
  2. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...In our natural state we are dead in our sins.

    So when God gives life to a dead person, the formerly dead person now made alive has no grounds to boast that he "chose" Christ. He confesses Christ and acknowledges Him as Lord, not as a means to salvation (since he was dead when he received it) but as a result of it. [​IMG]
     
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most Christians think they affirm the "T" of Tulip, but when really pressed most do not.

    While most believe the biblical doctrine of Original Sin, which teaches that all men are born sinners as a result of the Fall, most do not believe that no one is able to willingly respond in faith to the gospel of Grace.

    There is no passage that supports such a doctrine. Calvinists assume that being spiritually dead must mean that a person is unable to respond in faith to the powerful life giving truth of the gospel, but the scripture never even implies such a thing.

    The scripture also says that Christians are dead to sin, but they don't assume that must mean that we are unable to willingly sin.

    "T" is the foundation for there dogma and when it falls the rest comes tumbling after.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Even under the New Covenant, long since the Fall of man in the Garden, God says that sinners retain the 'image of God' in their persons. Read James 3:9. Also, St. John 1:9 God declares that His Light enlightens every person born of a woman. Sinners are not without hope because God the Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their need of Christ [John 16:8-11] before their personal regeneration via their faith in the Lord Jesus. The Godhead is more powerful in calling sinners to Christ than the evil one is in telling them to abort the idea of welcoming Jesus into their hearts/lives.

    Justification never happens until John 3:16 becomes a reality in the life of the lost one. [John 1:12]
     
  5. mprivett

    mprivett
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scripture is clear that we are justified (declared righteous by God) by faith (Romans 5:1). While regeneration and justification do go hand in hand, they are not the same thing.

    Jesus said, "...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3) Does this not speak to an unregenerate man's inability to see and understand the things of God?

    Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." He CANNOT understand them because they are spiritually appraised, and the natural man is spiritually dead in Adam (Rom. 5:12).

    Skandelon is right. Total Depravity is foundational... to the very Gospel preached in the Scriptures. If you don't have a biblical understanding of your inability/deadness, then you don't have a biblical understanding of the grace God has shown you by making you alive in Christ, giving you eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to understand, if in fact He has done this for you.

    I praise God and thank Him for His salvation, because I know that I was completely incapable of coming to it on my own. He elected me before the foundation of the world and made this lost sheep alive. I responded in faith that He gave me as a grace gift, which He is the author and perfecter of. Understanding these things is paramount to understanding God's grace and the Gospel itself.
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello annie.

    Total inability is my preferred term. This is what the reformers meant by it. A wrong choice of words or a slight change in meaning? Total depravity has a tendency to cause the hearer to think that we are saying we are as bad as we can be. This must seem patently wrong to them if they are not Christian or if they are Arminian. :cool: We witness compassion and love from sinners, if only outwardly as a Calvinist would see it, everyday. I believe the term is a chink in our armour. We should mend it.

    From Old England. Peace to you sister.

    johnp.
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings mprivett.

    Bear with one another. Encourage and edify. Doctrine does not save you. You are not disqualified if you fall short of complete understanding.

    It is God that teaches. I want them to have what we have. To know Him like we know Him. Let's boast about what we have and not mention what they might not have. A lot is expected from those that receive a lot.

    Five threads on the five points is a thing to behold and that is for sure.
    Joined on all fronts! Tally ho!

    johnp.
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry Ray.

    With respect this is incorrect.

    When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " Gen 5:1-2.
    When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. Gen 5:1.
    The fall took away the likeness of God in man. The race took on the likeness of man and stays that way unless he be born again. Only rebirth restores His image in us and until He does we are in the total darkness of the death. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Rom 8:29-30[/B]

    With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father... Who do? Christians do. ...and with it we curse men... Who do? Christians do. ...who have been made in God's likeness. Who have? Christians have.
    Because they had strife between themselves. Read on and you will find James talking to the Church. This should not be confused with a belief that all men are made in His likeness. James was urging the Church to stop fighting each other.

    2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    We and only we have the likeness of God. Christians.

    johnp.
     
  9. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Skandelon.

    I see by the number of posts that you have knocked up means that you have knocked about a bit here. I am therefore quite surprised to read that you wrote, "Most Christians think..." And, "While most believe..." Because when I hear that I hear something that is, if not false, a thing you can not know. Forgive me for being blunt.
    When I hear a man claiming to know such things as 'mosts' it detracts from their argument with me. A little thoughtlessness at the beginning of a statement must make one question the reason it is said. Which I do ask you.

    Now you must tell us by what authority you claim such a thing as to make us believe you and not Mr Calvin. I see no evidence of scriptural support for your assertion that the Reformation was based on a lie.

    I think Calvinists make assumptions from time to time. Baptism and circumcision are considered to be linked, outward signs meaning the same thing. That discussion continues and that decision affected our doctrine. There might be others.
    On Total Depravity however they are dead right. Isa 1:9 Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.

    That's a good point. Calvinists assume that being spiritually dead must mean that a person is unable to respond in faith... Since you got the meaning of this wrong then it is not surprising that you end up in a ditch. Calvinists do not 'assume' that being dead means being dead. :cool: If that is an assumption then what is this, being dead is not being dead? ...but they don't assume that must mean that we are unable to willingly sin. Now you make an assumption against the scripture. Do you willingly sin? You are dead to it so you cannot respond willingly, dead people can't do nothing. Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    I have recently come across people on the boards talking of one point or two point Calvinists. Three point four point and four point five point Calvinists!. I believe the five points cannot be broken. The five points must hang together or they will hang by themselves. Knock any one of them out of place and the game is yours.

    Rom 7:5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
    When we are dead in our sins the fallen nature controls us.

    Galk 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    The Holy Spirit and the fallen nature are the players in this not us. We are dead to having our say about anything.

    johnp.
     
  10. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    It was decreed that I should forget to tick the e-mail notification box.

    ():)ohn
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    johnp,

    You said,
    Nice try! I see you do not like the passage in James but what about Genesis 9:6 which is 1,655 years after the Fall in the Garden. In this passage God is telling us that men and women are created ' . . . in the image of God.' Here God is not merely speaking of the godly man Noah but each of His created beings. The Word will be eternally true. ' . . . for in the image of God made He man,' meaning human beings. So your only saints theory is false.

    The time of Adam and the Fall was in 4,004 B.C. and Noah's time on earth was as I said, 1,655 years after the Fall. The difference time again is l,655 years. What I am saying is that even after the Fall God is still creating men and women in the image of God Himself. This is hardly an affirmation of the theory of Total Depravity.

    In James 3:9 he is telling Christians that they cannot go to church and sing and praise saying, 'glory hallelujah' and then go into the secular world and with the same voice-- curse men/sinful, human beings, ' . . . who are made after the similitude of God.' The Greek word, similitude in the KJV is (homoiosin) meaning 'semblance, likeness, or reflection of God.

    Even though human sinners are tainted with Original Sin, God looks at them as His flawed persons in need of salvation and eternal life.

    I and others accept your post, but with all due respect, study first.
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Ray.

    That wobbled me!
    Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

    But the same answer stands. Who is being addressed but the Church? This was a time that there was only Church on Earth. That's new to me!

    Awfully precise aren't you? Makes me suspicious of you. Open honesty.

    ...God looks at them as His flawed persons in need of salvation and eternal life... What happened to make baby Esau and God fall out with each other then? Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by that but I would not mind reading feedback on what and how I write. I'm not in a position to know if I come across offensive. Please do not hesitate to let me know, I am always ready to be corrected. I believe we are to meet each other in love but with that missing there is a contradiction in our thinking.

    johnp.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Annie, One must understand that 2000 years ago, the penalty for sin was paid, ONCE of ALL. That means we are not under the penalty of sin anymore because the penalty has been lifted from us by the death of the Son of God.

    So how then can we be dead in sins since ALL sins have been atoned? We are spiritually dead through unbelief, and when we believe in Jesus we are brought to life in Him. If we don't believe in Jesus we remain dead, and when, because we are spiritually dead, we are judged, we get cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

    But, through our FAITH in Jesus, we pass from death unto life, and are not subject to judgment!

    Totally depraved is a religious myth!
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes Outwest,

    You said,
    I agree with all of your post, but liked the first sentence best. I think it was a new spiritual thought to me, in your presentation of the truth.

    Every human beings sins are atoned for sinner and saint. [I John 2:2] Belief is the only condition for personal salvation. [John 3:16]

    Thanks to you and for God showing this to us. Praise God.
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess I should have added the phrase, "In my experience," but I thought that would be a given since everything I know is based upon my experience. [​IMG]

    I see no evidence of scriptural support for your assertion that the Reformation was based on a lie.</font>[/QUOTE]You can't prove a negative. If it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. Can you find a passage that teaches that men are unable to willingly place their faith in Christ once confronted with the powerful truth of the gospel message?

    You've yet to show how being spiritually dead makes mankind unable to respond to God's powerful life giving gospel message.

    We are held accoutable to respond to Christ's words and will be judged by that word, there is no reason to believe that we are unable to respond to it.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I am Arminian - so I would agree with the above statement - but I would also agree that Christ supernaturally "DRAWS ALL MANKIND to Himself" John 12:32 and in so doing enables the choice for life that total depravity disables.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. mprivett

    mprivett
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    If God actually draws ALL MANKIND to Himself, then wouldn't all be saved? Because in John 6:44 Jesus says that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Will Jesus raise ALL MANKIND up on the last day?

    The word for "all" here is best rendered some of all types, or all peoples, as in some of every tribe, tongue, and nation. After all, not ALL will be saved.
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinists,

    Do you all believe that God was drawing all mankind (types or whatever) to himself when Christ was here on earth?

    Of course not. Christ was hiding the message in parables he was hardening and provoking the Jews so as to accomplish his ultimate purpose on the cross. The cross wouldn't have happened if Christ had revealed himself fully and won thousands as seen in Acts 2. Only those the father had given him from Israel to be trained by him could come to Him and be trained before he was raised up. The rest were temporarily hardened (Rm. 11:7) but once provoked those hardened might be saved (vs. 14).

    Calvinists need to study the doctrine of judicial hardening and ask themselves a few questions:

    1. Why would God hardened men born already hardened.
    2. How can those hardened be the non-elect of your system in chapter 9 and then saved in chapter 11?
    3. Why would Christ hid his message in parables from people so that they wouldn't believe and repent when they were born unable to believe and repent?
     
  19. dattgog

    dattgog
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stumbling Block / Offense / Skandalon wrote ...

    1. Why would God hardened men born already hardened.

    Men are not born hardened. They are born dead. He hardens the lost that they would store up more wrath in the day of wrath(Romans 2), and also to demonstrate His power (Romans 9). Hardening doesn't render the unregenerate unable to believe. It simply displays God's glory.

    2. How can those hardened be the non-elect of your system in chapter 9 and then saved in chapter 11?

    You've eisegeted this text. Romans 11 is talking about the nation. The nation itself (the Israel who was not Israel) was hardened in Romans 9. Some among that nation were brought to faith. But the nation was yet unrepentant. They will believe though, because God always justifies what He predestines. Romans 11 is speaking about a remnant of Israel that will be saved while the nation as a whole is hardened.

    3. Why would Christ hid his message in parables from people so that they wouldn't believe and repent when they were born unable to believe and repent?

    Because it wasn't from people in general He was concealing the message. It was from Israel the nation (in both Matthew 13 and John 12).

    Could you explain Acts 13:48?
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    They called Christ the Skandelon because he took what was hidden and brought it to light. That is where we get our english word "scandal."

    All the more reason to question the presumption that "dead" must mean totally unable to respond to God's powerful revelations. Why hardened a dead man? What does that accomplish?

    Really? Are you sure about that?

    Jhn 12:39   For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
    Jhn 12:40   "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."


    Why couldn't they believe? Was it because they were born that way? Not according to this verse. They couldn't believe because God had hardened them.

    Here is one more:

    Act 28:26   saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
    Act 28:27   FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'"
    Act 28:28   "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.


    The word "otherwise" in this passage tell us exactly what their ability would have been had they not been hardened.

    I've got a couple more if you need them.

    So, you believe that hardening accomplishing nothing in the person. Nothing really changes in the person? How does it then "display God's glory" to hardened, which is to make one blind and deaf spiritually, a dead man, who is already born blind and deaf spiritually? Does God take glory in kicking a dead man? Please explain.
    Yes, I understand he is talking only about "nations" when its about God saving those who are hardened, but when he speaks of election earlier it must be about individuals, not nations. You call that consistant? The same "nation" that is spoken of as being hardened in Romans 9 is the same "nation" spoken of as "not stumbling as to fall" (11:11), being provoked and possibly saved (vs 14), being grafted back in if they leave their unbelief" (23). Nations represent individuals and those individuals being hardened can be grafted back in.

    Yes, and why would he conceal his message from Israel if they weren't able to respond to him unless supernatually drawn?

    Yes, I could, but lets take one issue at a time. This post is about Total Depravity, I'd rather stick to that topic on this thread. If you want to start another I will address it there.
     

Share This Page

Loading...