T=Total Depravity

Hi Scott J;

Romans 3:10 Just what you do you think Pauls is quoting this for is it to prove total depravitiy? Not really but to show what and how a sinner see's the world After all it was a sinner or fool (David called him), that originally said this. That same fool quoted here in the Psalms said "there is no God" are we to believe that as well. To prove my point when Paul quoted this, had not Christ already come to the world was He not also a man as well as God and was he not righteous. Wasn't the writer of Romans also not righteous or how about the disciples. Is it not righteous to obey the Law or obey the commandments of Christ. To say that there is none righteous is a stretch you can't prove. Noah Was declared as righteous Gen 6:6
Joseph was to May 1:19
Simeon as well Luke 2:25
Able to Zechariah Mat 23:35
Lot was and Abraham.
So much for any truth to this statement "there are none righteous".
May God bless You;
Mike

 

Romans 3:10 Just what you do you think Pauls is quoting this for is it to prove total depravitiy? Not really but to show what and how a sinner see's the world After all it was a sinner or fool (David called him), that originally said this. That same fool quoted here in the Psalms said "there is no God" are we to believe that as well.</font>[/QUOTE] The fool only said this. The rest is a description of the ungodly.

Psalm 14:1
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
14:2
The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
14:3
They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

The response that there "is none who does good, no, not one" is actually in response to the Lord's looking down from heaven to see if any understand and seek Him. The answer is "no".

This doesn't prove your point at all since within the same context Paul discusses the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us. The only way you could apply this scripture to Christ is to strip Him of His deity.

All Christians are recepients of imputed righteousness. In the very next chapter of Romans, Paul explains this thoroughly and sets as his example the Jew of greatest "righteousness", Abraham. He like us, had righteousness credited or imputed to him else he would have cause to boast before God.

Your objection is answered by simply reading Romans 3 and 4 in context.

 

Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic? You think the gospel power is extrinsic? There are many passages, that I'm sure you are aware of, that teach about the power of the Word/gospel. Are there any that descibe that power as being extrinsic? Plus, if God is the one who creates the nature of the Word as being "intrinsically" powerful wouldn't He still be the one credited with empowering it? In other words, because God is the creator of the Word does it really matter if the Word is intrinsically or extrinsically powerful? God gets the credit for its power either way, doesn't He? The real question is whether God made it powerful enough for a fallen sinner to understand and respond to it. You believe that it not powerful enough to do that so God must change the man's ability. So in your view it doesn't matter how powerful the word is, it can be as weak as any other message because its the man's inability that must change. So, I really don't understand why you would want to argue for or agaist the power of the Word, its the power of the man or lack thereof that you need to focus on. (Which is exactly what you do next... )

Could you tell me what passage says that our minds need to be change before we accept anything from Him? Couldn't it be that the Word is the means that God has employed to change the mind of the man?

This is a common mistake that Calvinists make. You try to equate the works of the Law with faith. Paul clearly set them up as in opposition with eachother. One as being impossible and leading to destruction and the other as being possible and leading to righteousness.

I understand your position (I used to believe it) but it presumes too much. It presumes that men's fallen nature cannot respond to a powerful message of truth sent by God for the purpose of calling the lost to salvation, by which they will be held to account on the final day. In other words, it presumes that man's fallenness has fallen beyond the reach of "intrinsic" or "extrinsic" power of the gospel and therefore the man's fallenness must be corrected before the gospel can have its intended effect.

Once again this presumes that the new nature must come BEFORE the gospel can have effect. But its the gospel message that God has employeed to change the nature, afterall the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not the other way around.

Romans 3:20 teaches us that we fall short of God's glory ACCORDING TO THE LAW. In other words, if we seek righteousness according to the Law we will fall short. But read on. Verse 21 says that there is a righteousness NOW being revealed from heaven which is not from the Law (which is NOT possible) but a righteousness that come through faith (which IS possible) because Christ fulfilled the law for us. You assume that because we can't be declared righteous under the the law through works that we can't be declared righteous under grace through faith. That is not supported ANYWHERE in the text.

I'm not saying that. That is a common strawman created by Calvinists to attack Arminians but it is simply a misunderstanding. We can do nothing "on our own." But you seem to forget that God didn't leave us "on our own." He sent the Word through his Son, the apostles and the Scripture. I just believe the Word's power is sufficient to allow fallen men to respond to it. You don't. The scripture certainly implies men are able to believe the Word with statements such as "whosoever believes" and "he who rejects the word has that which will judge him on the final day" certainly imply that anyone can believe and accept the truth of the Word. Only an explicit passage teaching us that the Word is not sufficient to lead fallen men to faith would cause us to even question that implicit ability.

So you think if man is able to make a free choice that God would somehow compromise his sovereigity?

Did God compromise his sovereignity in the garden when Adam and Eve were given a free choice? Or do you not believe they had a free choice?

 

That is how Calvinist define (or more accurately REdefine) the term "EARN".

They claim that when a million dollars is offered to you - if you hold out your hand to take it - you "EARNED" it.

It is an odd system - Calvinism.

They claim that you are OWED the million simply by being someone who was willing to take a gift. In fact they trump up the choice as "A work of faith that is duely OWED salvation as fully earned and not a gift".

Fascinating that your defense of your view could lead you to such an illogical point.

Wrong. In the real world - I obligate MYSELF - if I claim to offer 10 dollars to "THE WHOLE WORLD".

But making an offer - does not result in "wages earned" showing up as for each person on the planet.

Neither is the act of accepting one's paycheck the WORK that was done to EARN the paycheck.

Much as that comes to a surprise to Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Certainly! And If God says in His word "I have freely chosen to So love the FEW that I gave my only begotten son that those FEW that I love might have life. I offer Him as the atoning sacrifice for the FEW - and for the rest - I care not a witt".

Then dying for - and saving just the FEW - is fully consistent with His Word and what He obligates HIMSELF to do.

But instead He claims that He "SO LOVED THE WORLD" and that HE is the atoning sacrifice "FOR OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" because accoring to HIM " He is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

So... He freely, and sovereignly - obligates Himself. And He IS faithful and true to His Word (as it turns out).

But your point above also lends itself to another conclusion - the idea that God is free to arbitrarily select anyone He wants to Love and to die for.

The Calvinist "future scenario" comes to mind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Skandelon.

I think so. It is God expressing Himself. That expression, that Word was with God in the beginning and is God. So it cannot be extrinsic. It can't be separate from Him. I would not say though that the words printed in the bible are God but He works the words in us to harden or soften. They are never independant of Him. ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

...because God is the creator of the Word... God is the begetter of the Word. Begotten not created.

You mean without His assistance? The power cannot be separate from God can it? God says that it accomplishes His desire.

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Heb 10:16 HEB 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Yes, if it is a capital. Not if it is lower case by itself as in a book. It is not words written in a book that can change a heart of stone into a heart for God. They were not finished until 2,000 years ago. If they were meant, by themselves, to change men's minds then Abraham and the rest had a problem.

1CO 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

"My sheep will hear my voice."

whosoever believes Is a statement of fact. It does not imply anything but that 'whosoever believes'.

And the scriptural proof for this is what?
Heb 2:13 And again he says, "Here am I, and the children God has given me." That Word? Or just the word in a book? You use 'Word' and not 'word'? of Course the Word is sufficient, My sheep will hear my voice, but the word is not sufficient.

Yes. God's Sovereignity cannot be compromised.

No. They were not given a choice in the garden. They were told not to. I do not understand what is meant by a 'free' choice. Free from what? Free will, free from what? Free willing Christians are going down hill! Free, but only from God? Not free in any other sense, am I correct? But I answer no. They were under the direct control of God. His Sovereignity is at stake if any decision is ever made by anyone else! Sovereign to me means Sovereign.

How'd I do? Marks out of ten please.

johnp.

 

This money analogy aside, your fundamental miscue is your misunderstanding of the "WHOLE WORLD" that John frequently uses in his writings. Take John 3 for example. If you look at this passage in its context, it is clear that Jesus was speaking to a teacher of the Law in Nicodemus who was a Pharisee. Nicodemus could and would not fathom that God would save any pig-eating Gentile scum.

And Jesus says, "For God so loved the world of the Jews AND the Gentiles in this way Nicodemus, that He gave His only unique Son, that whoever believes in Him (and the issue here is not that anyone can believe, but who will believe) will not perish, but have eternal life."

The same understanding rings true in the oft-cited 1 John 2:2. Let me ask you this. If Jesus really was the propitiation for every single individual, the absorber of the wrath of God for every one, period, why does God still punish sin? Was it not finished at the cross? If not, what did Jesus mean when He said it was finished?

 

Nicely put mprivett.

The word world is interpreted: (to understand and appreciate in the light of individual belief, judgment by all of us. 'World' is used in John 56 times in the NIV.
The word can bear no weight in the formulation of a doctrine in the way it is being used.
An example; JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
He was in the world So Jesus was a sinner!
We can make it say whatever we want can't we?

It is a thing isn't it, that Jesus died for the sins of everyman and yet not everyman's sins are forgiven!?
Somehow those ones that go to Hell with their sins forgiven go to Hell because of their unbelief which can't be a sin because Jesus died for their sins. Yet it says that death, separation from God, is only the result of sin.

Then again, since Jesus intercedes for those that are His, He is our High Priest after all, why does He not intercede for all of those that He died for? John 17:9 I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Since He loves the world why not? This is a question they must answer. Since God so loved the world why does He not intercede for it. We know the Father always hears Jesus and gives Him all He asks for.

He can't punish sin since Jesus died, in their theology, for all of sin. You go to Hell for unbelief which is not a sin. Does that make sense?

Just goes to show, in my opinion, how depraved depravitry can be.

Great ain't it?

johnp a pig-eating Gentile scum.

 

You mean without His assistance? The power cannot be separate from God can it? God says that it accomplishes His desire.</font>[/QUOTE]But you presume that God's desire is the Calvinistic one. That is merely begging the question...What is God's desire or purpose in sending the word. You believe His desire was to certainly save a select few. I believe His desire was to provide a road to salvation through faith in his Son. I believe God wanted men to choose freely and thus be without excuse when they stand before judgement. They will be judged by the word that they reject, so it makes little sense to teach that they cannot understand or accept the word, does it?

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe this passage says that. It says that the man without the Spirit doesn't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. What "things" is Paul speaking about here? Back up to verse 10 and you will see that Paul begins discussing the "deep things of God," those things that are unrevealed and ONLY known by the Spirit, much like the things only a man's spirit knows that no one else has been told. The gospel or the WORD is not one of those "things." Why? Because it has been clearly revealed. Plus, if you continue to read you will see that the Corinthian "brethern" to which Paul is addressing had not accepted these "things" either, yet Paul still considered them "brethern." Clearly this passage is not refering to salvation through faith in the gospel. It is refering to understanding the deep things of God as we grow in maturity and that carnal believers should leave the milk of the word and get some meat.

Yes, if it is a capital. Not if it is lower case by itself as in a book. It is not words written in a book that can change a heart of stone into a heart for God. They were not finished until 2,000 years ago. If they were meant, by themselves, to change men's minds then Abraham and the rest had a problem.</font>[/QUOTE]But they are not just anyone's words and its not just any book. These words are inspired and God sent. They are truth and truth is powerful. Jesus says that his words will judge men on the final day. He says that his words are spirit. Are you denying the power of the scripture and the truth of our Lord's words?

BTW, I'm not promoting bibliolotry here, I'm just making sure you at least affirm the power of God's truth.

The point of this whole discourse is to show you that Arminians can say the same things about God that Calvinists can say. Such as, "Faith comes from God." We agree, faith comes by hearing the truth and the truth came from God. And, "Without God man can do nothing." We agree, without God's word man could to nothing. And, "On his own man would never seek God." We agree, which is why we praise Him for seeking us through the sending of His word. And, "On his own man could not understand God." We agree, which is why we thank him for giving us the clear and powerful truth laid out for us to read in our own language.

You see, I believe Calvinism takes passages that descibe what man would be like had God not done anything on our behalf and apply it to an overall nature for all mankind for all time. What you all are missing is a passage that teaches that the gospel, a work of God, is not enough. You need to show where the scripture teaches that men are born incapable to willingly believe the powerful truth of God's revelations.

1CO 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."</font>[/QUOTE]Of course its because of him that we are in Christ Jesus. Like I said, he still get the credit in our system because we actually do recognize that the gospel is His work. He is the giver of the gift and gets the credit for that gift regardless of whether or not you believe that men's response is active rather than passive.

"My sheep will hear my voice."</font>[/QUOTE]"I have another fold that I will bring in."

It doesn't? Then why does every person who first encouters your dogma quote it? I will tell you why. If you were to start a web board and send a message to 12 of your friends telling them to pass the message on to everyone telling them that you had started a web board for the world and that whoever registered could be a member. Would anyone reading that message even think for a moment that only a certain few people with special invitations sent seperately could actually register and become members? Of course not. Why? Because you message certainly implies that whoever in the world can register.

You are trying to divide the man from his words. He was called the Word for a reason. The word is truth and truth shall set you free! The word is spirit and the spirit will give you life. The man is gone, the spirit remains and the spirit is in the word.

No. They were not given a choice in the garden. They were told not to. I do not understand what is meant by a 'free' choice. Free from what? Free will, free from what? Free willing Christians are going down hill! Free, but only from God? Not free in any other sense, am I correct? But I answer no. They were under the direct control of God. His Sovereignity is at stake if any decision is ever made by anyone else! Sovereign to me means Sovereign.</font>[/QUOTE]As it does to me. We just have differing views of the power of God in that Sovereignity. I personally think God is powerful enough to create a world were people can make independant choices while maintaining His sovereignity. Obviously you believe that is just one thing God couldn't manage to pull off.

Now, back to Adam and Eve. You say they didn't have a choice? When presented with the fruit to eat are you saying they couldn't choose to eat or not to eat? They couldn't choose to obey or disobey? Are you sure there was NO CHOICE?

 

Free moral agency--

Eve had it--she was beguiled by Satan--she went for the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. She disobeyed God.

Adam had it--he just "flat out" chose to disobey God.

All of Adam's race is born with a sin nature which has disabled man's ability to choose that which is good. Without God providing the path and the light for the path, man cannot choose the right path. His "free moral agency" is chained by his sin nature. Only God can break this bondage.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

I hardly accept that Eve "went for the lust of the flesh" (animal behavior) in her disobedience of God. did Eve recieve the command of God? Or was it Adam that received the command?

Free Moral Agency is what God has, and in creating man in His image, gave man Free moral agency. So free moral agency is inherent to man.

Since all sins have their origin in the spirit, Eve's sin of disobedience came from her spirit, and not from her flesh. The possible exception to this is sexual behavior because our bodies do have cycles, especially women of "child bearing age" and men react to those cycles in women. That would be "lust of the flesh", where the body has the driver's seat and must be controlled by the spirit. All other sins are originate in the spirit which controls the flesh. That is why when we are transformed, it is in the spirit and not the flesh.

 

Hi Scott J;

That is really a stretch since the period doesn't come up until after He said there is none righteous. The quotation marks are yours and the entire psalm is about what the fool said in his heart. It is also what most sinners say. To say there is none righteous, is also including Christ because He was and is God and a Man. So where is your truth?. Many have been declared righteous. Abel was, Noah was,Joseph, Simeon, Zechariah, Lot, and Abraham. All righteous are you really say that none of these were righteous as well as Christ?
None is such a complete word, it means empty, nothing, non existent. So was Paul, and David, Lying?
May God give you Light;
Mike

 

Both the O.T. and the N.T. reminds us that we are created as sinners in the image of God. [Genesis 9:6 & James 3:9d] Original Sin has separated all sinners from Almighty God, but there is hope. John the Apostle tells us in 6:63 that the words that Jesus speaks 'are spirit and are life.' This is why we should witness and preach the Gospel, because wherever God's truth is offered to sinners, the Holy Spirit activates the truth of God to lost souls. His words are uniquely different from other secular words that we often use in talking with other people.

God does not need to first regenerate a sinner before the lost one makes his repentance and commitment to the Lord. Why? Because as Dr. A.T. Robertson says in his "Word Pictures In The New Testament" Vol. V, p. 114, 'The breath of God and the life of God is in the words of Jesus. There is life in his words today.' [end quote]

When the sinner is awakened as to the truth of God, he or she is never the same again. There are only two choices: One, to receive Christ or two---to turn away from our Savior. His Spirit is spiritual and His Spirit is and delivers life to all who believe. [John 3:16]

Regeneration first before saving faith is a distortion of the Gospel.

 

Have you ever notice what John 1:12-13 tells us?

12. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name,

he gave the right to become children of God

13. Children born not of natural descent,

nor of human decision
nor of the will of the flesh KJV

or a husband's will, but born of God.

 

What I notice in that scripture is this, there is no limitation, just choice! Believe or unbelieve.

 

Would you be so kind to provide Scriptures?

 

John 3:16 for starters. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth (pure choice) in Him should not perish but have ever lasting life (never die--saved from death).

John 1:11-13.

When one "receives, or accepts Jesus" it is through spiritual persuasion, and not because of an innate power to do so. We become persuaded that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and through persuasion we come to have FAITH in Him. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD!
John 1:1.

The word became flesh and dwelt among us, so that we, THROUGH FAITH, could become the Children of God. What Power God gave us when he gave us the power to have FAITH!

Yes it is human faith in God that sanctifies (sets apart) the human for salvation.

 

Outwest

Scriptures given by you are generalized statements and do not provide any details as to why they believe or who initiates their belief.
Adaquate information is not given to make a complete and accurate analysis.

Isa. 65:1
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me."

Did you ask Jesus to come into your heart? Did you seek him before he came into your heart?

Give God the credit for your salvation and not yourself.

 

Hi Prophecynut;

Yes I did. Didn't you? Didn't Christ say;
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Didn't Christ also say;
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If no one can come unto the Father but by Him then how is it that you were regenerated before you even knew Christ? You see Calvinist believe that they are regenerated first before they can have faith. Not True. Did you come some other way or were you made or manipulated to come to Him. If you were then God doesn't Love you because Love never thinks of Him self first. If one trully Loves another they would only desire true Love in return. No one not even God can make someone Love them. This is why we are commanded to Love God. If we were made to Love God there would be no need for that command.

I give Jesus Christ the credit and even still He doesn't hold a gun to my head making me accept a free gift, But invites me to come an invitation is made with the hope of your comming. It isn't a dictated unalterable plan of regeneration regardless of what you want. We are not dragged to Christ kicking and screaming

As far as Isiah 65:1 This was written to Jews. Most here are Gentiles and Salvation has come to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Thats Gentiles as a whole.
But while were at it maybe you could show where in scripture where it says we have no choice. I can certainly show scripture that says we do.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT,

Yes, brother, stop trying to lift yourself up to Heaven by your own bootstraps. Hey, they really believe that we believe this previous sentence. No we believe that only His grace saves sinners and now we are the children of the Light, the sons and daughters of the living God.

If they have not invited Jesus into their life they are not saved! He does not come to sinners by Divine or human/sinful osmosis. Neither does trusting in Five Points of Arminianism or Calvinsim save souls. A living trust in Jesus will do just fine.