T=Total Depravity

ILUVLIGHT

As a teenager I learned about Jesus, which set the foundation for baptism by the Holy Spirit much later. One must have cognition before God changes your heart so one may understand when the Holy Spirit dwells within you.

John said: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." 6:44

God will attract and pull one into the knowledge of Chirst and then at the right moment, according to His will, change the person's heart.

Why is conversion so easily done and the person is openly receptive to God's intervention? Because man is made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26).


Who makes the decision?

John 1:12-13

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name,

He gave the right to become children of God -

children born not of natural descent,

NOR OF HUMAN DECISION - NIV
NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH - KJV

or a husband's will,

but born of God.

 

Hi Prophecynut;

Agreed. This is true . This is also true;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

To bad you didn't offer scripture to support this.

I agree man is made in the image of God which is why man has a will of his own just like God does.
I agree that Christ first chose us but we first trust in Him. Without trust there is no relationship.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You still haven't explain how you get no choice on mans part out of the first phrase in verse 12.
No one receives anything unless they are willing to.
God does not make us willing because God is Love and Love does not serve him self before others.
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Thank you admonishment and advice prophesynut. Now allow me to return the favor.

Give God the credit for creating US in HIS image. In doing so, He gave us abilities, and expects us to use them. He placed before us the things that we are to believe, and persons (FATHER, SON, and Holy Spirit) we are to believe in. He EXPECTS us to do so, and those who don't, get cast away into the lake of fire, another place He prepared that is not this earth, and certainly is not heaven.

God has given us the ability to "hear", and the ability to "believe", and the ability to "Repent", and the ability to "resist temptation", and the ability to "not sin", even though we most often WILLFULLY choose to sin.

He did not give us the ability to "save ourselves" that is why he sent us HIS son, Jesus. We could not Pay the penalty of sin, and have everlasting life, So he gave us the "blameless", "Sacrificial", Lamb of God, who paid the penalty with his own innocent life, so that we are not penalized with death, but THROUGH FAITH, one of the abilities that God created us to have, we can pass from death, the natural death,into everlasting life without judgment! (John 3:16 and John 3:18), both of which are quite "direct statements of truth" out of the mouth of God the Son, and told to a prominent Religious teacher of
"The LAW".

Now being made in the Image of God with certain built-in capabilities, God expects us to "SEE" his revelation of Himself, through "HEARING" the Word, and believing what the Word says of God. He does not have to precondition us to have that ability because in creating man, HE MADE US "THAT WAY".

We are the only species of life that has the ability to "Hear" the abstract, the unexplained, the "unrevealed in the natural realm", and believe in it. No other species has that ability. Guess what? God expects us to use that ability! That is why unbelief is man's "Self-Judgement" (John 3:18b), and God does not have to judge us because we judge ourselves. He confirms our self-judgment, by looking in the Book of Life to find our names written there. Only the names of those who have exercised their God given ability of "Faith" to have faith in God, an act of the freewill, will be found in the Book of Life, all others will, because of their unbelief, be cast into the lake of fire...the second death (Revelation 20:14,15).

If you cannot make a Complete and Accurate analysis based on the scriptures that I gave you, then your ability to discern the truth is questionable.

Remember the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus is a discourse between the one who fulfilled over 60 Old Testament PROPHESIES, and a Teacher of the land. Now I don't know about you, but I believe the Accuracy of those words from the mouth of the one who fulfilled all those prophesies can be trusted for Eternity. If you choose to not accept them, you do so at your own peril!

I summarize for you:
We are made with abilities. Sin did not remove those abilities! Sin did not alter us, except to make us self centered, self seeking, self satisfying creatures....We remain "IN THE IMAGE OF GOD" with all the abilities God instilled into the first created man. The difference is we willfully choose to sin!

God expects us to use the abilities HE put in us in the creation, else he would not have commanded us down through the millenniums, to do so! We are commanded to have FAITH in God! We'd better obey that command. We are commanded to subdue our flesh, and we do that in spirit. We are commanded to love one another, without the ability, we could not do so! We are commanded to Love the Lord our God with all our hearts, soul and mind. We'd better start doing that or else!

God does not have FAITH! He is faithful, but lacks FAITH, though demanding it from us.
God gave us everything that would lead us to have faith in Him.

God gave us His only Son, to atone for sin so that sins are not a factor in human salvation. One's sins are not an impediment to FAITH! Nor do they prevent us from having everlasting life. (Thank you Jesus!)

We are Justified By Jesus, and Sanctified by our FAITH in Jesus.

I give GOD ALL the Credit for my salvation! He in turn gives me credit for using the abilities that HE created me to have, by saving me!

 

To quote Wes:
"God does not have FAITH!"

I wanted to look at where faith comes from.

Romans 10:17 (NASB95)
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Acts 13:48 (NASB95)
"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Mainly this:

Hebrews 12:2 (NASB95)
"fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

The source, or author of our faith is Jesus Christ it is not of ourselves - or we could boast that we heard and understood the Word of Christ while others did not.

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

Nathan,

Calvinist declare that election is decreed from eternity past, ' . . . before the foundation of the world.' If this is true in and of itself it makes 'hearing,' 'calling' on Him and 'believing' [Romans 10:14]superfluous.

But, to my knowledge so far, He never says that He decreed the elect of the saved and the retrobution of the less fortunate and less favored ones.

When you read Romans 10:14 this should give you a sign that while grace comes from God as a gift to be received, [Ephesians 2:8] faith must be the response of the sinner toward God. He must 'hear' the Gospel, he must respond with his 'call' of repentance and a faith/trust, which is of course 'believing' in the Lord Jesus. [vss.] 9-10 & 14] No sinner has ever been saved without human cognition, and the movement of the human will. [Revelation 22:17f] To most people the words, 'whosoever will' suggests the freedom of determination.

We believe that election has been determined by the perfect knowledge of God the Father, the 'Spirit' and through the atonement of Jesus. For reference read I Peter 1:2 and look for the base word {prognosis}. God knows all of the elect ones but He has absolutely nothing to do with autocratically determining eternal destinations. The Godhead makes the prognostication without determining the will of the sinning agents.

Ray

 

Just one verse for your consideration - as I have time I will write more.

Revelation 13:7-10 (NASB95)
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Those who worship the beast are those who are going to hell. Who worship the beast? Those whose names were not written, before the foundation of the world, in the book of life of the Lamb.

Our choices are still real, God's predestination (that is not a word made up from Calvin, it is a word in the Bible) makes sure either a man's damnation or salvation - without negating the responsibility of man.

No one will say to God - Hey, I didn't want to sin!
Or - Hey, I didn't want to follow Christ!

Free will I believe is doing what I desire most at the current moment.

I am free - but God is more free than I am.

He is the first causation and I, being a man, am secondary.

He does - and then I do
He first loved me and so I love Him.

Because He lives,
Nathan

 

Hello Wes.

This is error, unless you mean Christians only.
GE 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line.
When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. "
GE 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
The image of God has gone from Adam's children. We are born in his likeness until we are born of God. Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
How can we be like God before we put on the new self? The scripture is very clear. God is contrasting the image of Himself in Adam before the fall and the image of Adam in us after the fall.

1 Cor 15:49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
The only thing we have within us that God likes to see are those qualities that He has put in us since rebirth. Any quality that Adam passed onto you is set for destruction. It is the spirit that is made alive in Christ and since it is made alive at regeneration then we must have been dead, not sentenced to death, but in death itself. You claim that you made yourself alive.
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
How can I claim that I myself was created in the likeness of God when He says that He knew me and predestined me to be conformed to His likeness?

JAS 3:9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.
James is talking to the Christians who are fighting Christians.

What are you saying here, that Adam did not wilfully sin?

So you are in credit with God are you? About time He owed us something!
You do not give Him credit for saving you though. What you give Him credit for is making it possible for you to save yourself. As if you were bobbing about in the river and He chucked a lifeline to you. You claim to have grabbed it? I on the other hand, along with those who do give all the glory to God, were dead, face down dead, dead in our sins. That's what dead means. Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
GE 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Dead in their sins. The mold from which all men have been made including you.

Man in his glory! That is fallen man raging at God.
You have no right to claim a thing God claims as His own, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:12-13

And I thought the gospel meant good news!

Adam received the command from God and told Eve.

Where's this scripture then? What is a free moral agency? Does a free moral agency enable one to make decisions on what to be like? Does it for instance allow one to be bad, to be unjust? God cannot do those things. It says He cannot, not that He decides not to. Are we freer than Him because we can be tempted? What is a free moral agency?

This is a good one! Rewrite Ephesians, "It is by persuasion you have been saved." Great stuff!

Changing horses in midstream? What does this mean?

johnp.

 

Hello Ray.

We only pass on the flipping obvious.

The plan was hatched in God.

No it doesn't. This is your main problem and I think you should try to see the other point of view. Hearing has been ordained by God to bring in the sheep. Scripture, 'My sheep listen to my voice' John 10:27. Matt 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Only those respond who are His sheep. The call goes out for those and only those will hear and believe. The others do not believe because, John 10:26, they are not the sheep. Their father is the Devil.
'Whosoever believes' was not written for unbelievers but for believers. Do you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins? Good, then you can take advantage of the fact that the 'whosoever' includes you. If you do not believe Jesus died for your sins then you go to Hell. So a Christian knows who is in and who is out. I have had my sins penalties paid for in full. There is nothing and no one, including God, that can bring a successful charge against me. I cannot go to Hell. I am a free man and everything is permissable to me. The reason I say this is because Jesus died for my sins. That means I am in! I am one of the 'whosoevers' forever.

I am not sure what you say here. They, the 'less fortunate and less favored' are not less favoured but they are hated by God.

You drop yourself in it here! No babies are saved? No mentally retarded? What is this then, "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Lk 1:41"? John was saved and was able to leap for joy in the womb! Exercise his will did he? Retract?

Then God does not reign supreme in your world and that's a fact.

johnp.

 

PlantEarth,

Where ever you are on earth I know you will agree with this.

Why would God tell sinners to simply 'believe' in Him and His finished work for them on the Cross, if they were so dead and incapacitated that they cannot reach out to God in faith? Though we were fallen creatures, we are not without a mind, conscience and ready will. When the Holy Spirit woos the sinner, God's power and authority is greater than the evil one/Devil.

If the evil one is more formidable than Christ please make me aware of this truth from the Bible. I do know that you agree with me on this point.

 

johnp,

Greetings.

Here is a contradiction of terms! When a person is hated by God it places him in a favored position before His justice? Not!

I said before, 'No sinner has ever been saved without human cognition, and the movement of the human will.' I think you knew that I was speaking of the general population of sinners and not the exceptions which you have suggested. I agree that babies, even your non-elect ones, are going to be saved even if you don't want them to inherit everlasting life.

So you equate movement within the mother as equaling salvation? Vs. 41 says 'that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. I know some prophets had the Spirit before birth, but then the Lord God knew they would confirm that which took place after their birth, namely their prophecying/preaching.

I said before, 'The Godhead makes the prognostication without determining the will of the sinning agents.'

These are the facts! The Godhead has ordained sovereignly to allow men and women to either receive Christ or to reject Him, making them responsible for their eternal destiny. This is Divine justice! If He elected some and damned others His attribute of Divine love and justice would be flawed or imperfect, and we all know that the true God is impeccable.

 

Strangely enough, that is what God said.

Ephesians 1:4-6 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

The Calvinist position on election from eternity past is only a repetition of what God has already said. Those who deny it, deny the word of God and impugn his truthfulness.

Not at all. It rather renders it certain. Salvation is not left to chance. God's grace and mercy has rendered salvation certain for his elect, regardless of their lot in life. You see, God is not a God who plays favorites and that alone renders the arminian position untenable.

God's grace is bestowed without respect for lot in life, friends, time in history, etc. Imagine a God who leaves an individuals salvation up to someone else. What if Joe in tribal Africa would be saved if only you, Ray, were obedient enough to go there. But becuase you aren't, Joe will never hear. But the people who live around you do hear. How unfair is that. Joe has less of a chance because of where he lives. God would therefore be playing favorites to those who live in gospel saturated regions. He would be showing favoritism to those born in 20th century America over those born in 15th century Africa or in the 15th century BC in Asia.

But that cannot be. The fact that God is no respector of persons demands the Calvinist understanding of election. Anything else makes God an God of partiality.

 

Pastor Larry,

Right my brother, sending men and women to Hell is not playing favorites. No one really believes this theory, deep down in their hearts.

We should not need to remind a Christian pastor that salvation is a gift. [Ephesians 2:8] The Lord does not endow some with grace while forbidding other sinners to stand before His throne. A gift must be received!

And as far as me going to Africa my call was here in the United States as a pastor. I'm not quite as ubiquitous as you might have thought.

We know that the Godhead elected people to eternal life, but not in the contorted way that Augustinian/Calvinism portrays the Lord as Being.

All of the lands of the world once heard the Gospel, but like the Israelites have, for the most part turned their back on the true God. The sins of the fathers are visited on their sons and daughters.

In Romans 1:18-23 God speaks of a people who 'knew God' [vs. 21] possibly by showing them His creation of the moon, the stars and the sun. [vs. 20] Apparently, these sinners are without excuse if they do not believe in God, at least to the extent that He has revealed Himself to them. Do you think that sinners can be saved apart from the Gospel?

Hey, now there's a streeeeeeeetch of human thinking about Christian theology.

Best regards,
Ray

 

Hello Ray.

It places his face exactly where he should be facing, justice. Not me man! I don't face His justice praise the Lord. Where's the problem with that.
That is nothing to do with us. We obey Him regardless of our nature. You try to tell me that He has to wait on us to pick Him. I say it is He that decides who is going to spend forever with Him not us. You say He cannot pick and chose who He wants, as if He did not pick and chose Israel, but must put up with any lover who calls. He choses His lovers. Are you saying He cannot pick whomsoever He wishes? He does as He pleases.

You said 'everyman'. Who are you to say these are the exceptions? How many kids have been saved? You cannot say this. Are they the exception really?

You cannot say that either because you do not know what I want.

What was that you were saying about John the Baptist? That God was showing that he would be one of those that chose himself to salvation? Is that right? That the leap in the womb was just a show? That he had still to be saved. Go and tell Pharoah that God gave him a chance.

PHP 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

First notice that Paul gives a direction to aim at, to obey, to work out our salvation, even though he goes onto say, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose".
Does He will only in non-sinners? As if we were not sinners.
I was made to be saved. 2 Cor 5:5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
And again it is God, not us, 2 Cor 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Puppets man, that's what we are. Praise the Lord.

That's a contradiction. What you think you believe is that God has negated His responsibility. That is what you are saying. Like the captain of a ship saying someone else is in charge.

In your opinion. Of course, if you are wrong, you are judging God. In your opinion you are judging God anyway. He's the boss. If He says a thing then that thing is. Simply is. It is not for us to say that is right or wrong, it just is.

How can God sin? He is the One that makes the rules! What He says is. We must take Him at His word and you cannot say we, the Calvinists, are without a shred of evidence. The bible is replete with the 'God will do's'.

The Calvinist position on election from eternity past is only a repetition of what God has already said. Those who deny it, deny the word of God and impugn his truthfulness. posted 29 November, 2004 16:42 by Pastor Larry.

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

johnp.

 

I do not know if you are supporting my statement or trying to refute it.

I agree that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, but HE did not 'give' us the faith...only the reasons to have faith. Each individual "grows their own faith". Jesus did, in the creation of man, place in him the ability to have faith, but did not give what He does not have. He has no faith, because there is nothing that He hopes for, and nothing that he does not know or see. We are told in scripture that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". Only those who must have hope, and cannot see all there is, can have faith! That's the nature of faith. So, God does not have any faith to give to man. God, who knows our innermost parts, Knows what it takes for us to have faith, and He provides all of the reasons for us to have faith in Him. Those who do not come to faith in God, are not hearing the word. They are hearing "religious dogma and man made fables, but they are not hearing the truth of God."

 

John P,

This is error, unless you mean Christians only.
GE 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line.
When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. "
GE 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
The image of God has gone from Adam's children. We are born in his likeness until we are born of God. Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
How can we be like God before we put on the new self? The scripture is very clear. God is contrasting the image of Himself in Adam before the fall and the image of Adam in us after the fall.</font>[/QUOTE]Was newly created Adam a Christian? You are completely wrong about the image of God leaving man. You do not seem to understand what image means! In the image of God is how we humans exist, ALL humans! In "Conformance to", or "in the likeness" of God and or the Christ is what it means to be Christian.

1 Cor 15:49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

The only thing we have within us that God likes to see are those qualities that He has put in since rebirth.</font>[/QUOTE]Then just why is it that God established such an elaborate plan for the redemption of fallen, broken man, if man has no qualities that please Him? Could it be that God sees in us His own, albeit incomplete, image?

Are you asleep at the wheel? If God did not see something worth redeeming in his created man, He would not have had Noah build an ark, but would have instead destroyed ALL mankind. In truth, God would not have allowed Eve to bear children to Adam, and there would be no human race. Those decisions were made because God chose to have a Son of his own "seed" whose destiny was to pay the penalty for sin, so that man could, through faith, have life everlasting in lieu of being cast into the lake of fire. As for My claims, you are wrong, I make no claims for making myself alive. God created us, He makes us alive! It is you who takes the wrong approach to life. You seem to not understand that we are all God's creation, made in his image, and made for His purpose.

How can I claim that I myself was created in the likeness of God when He says that He knew me and predestined me to be conformed to His likeness?</font>[/QUOTE]"Conformed to his likeness"? Man is made in God's image, but because of sin, man is not conformed to God's likeness! God is Holy! In him there is no sin! So to be conformed to God's likeness means to be holy and sinless!

James is talking to the Christians who are fighting Christians.</font>[/QUOTE]And Paul is speaking to Christian Gentiles...your point?

What are you saying here, that Adam did not wilfully sin?</font>[/QUOTE]No, I am not saying that Adam did not willfully sin, I am saying instead that being in the image of God, does not mean that we cannot sin, but instead we choose to sin, while we remain in the image of God.

So you are in credit with God are you? About time He owed us something!
You do not give Him credit for saving you though. What you give Him credit for is making it possible for you to save yourself. As if you were bobbing about in the river and He chucked a lifeline to you. You claim to have grabbed it? I on the other hand, along with those who do give all the glory to God, were dead, face down dead, dead in our sins. That's what dead means. Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."</font>[/QUOTE]No! that is not what I said, and you really should not continue to "spin" what I say. Refute it all you want, but don't "spin" it to make it say something different than what I said!

Dead in their sins. The mold from which all men have been made including you.</font>[/QUOTE]"Separated from God through unholiness" is the same as dead, but Adam's and Eve's image remained in the image of God.

Man in his glory! That is fallen man raging at God.
You have no right to claim a thing God claims as His own, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:12-13</font>[/QUOTE]Where have I made any claim to the contrary?

And I thought the gospel meant good news!</font>[/QUOTE]Good news is that Jesus died so that we don't have to! Good news is that God did all the work of our salvation, and all that is required of us is believing in Him and especially in the name of His Beloved son. He commands us to LOVE Him! if we do not do what He has commanded us to do, then we are disobedient in the manner that Adam was disobedient. You know what happened to Adam!

Adam received the command from God and told Eve.[/quote]Then God put the responsibility for obedience on Adam, and Adam put the responsibility for obedience on Eve. She failed, so did He. But it was not "Lust of the flesh", but open disobedience which is spiritual!

Where's this scripture then? What is a free moral agency? Does a free moral agency enable one to make decisions on what to be like? Does it for instance allow one to be bad, to be unjust? God cannot do those things. It says He cannot, not that He decides not to. Are we freer than Him because we can be tempted? What is a free moral agency?</font>[/QUOTE]The scriptures are full of events where God tells us to do something that He is not going to do for us. We are free to choose to do what he tells us to do, or not! The scriptures are full of "truth or consequences" situations where God tells man what to do and gives the reasons for doing it, and follows us with the consequences of not doing it. If man did not have Free Agency, why would God's word be giving us the "truth or consequences" and the "Cause and effect" scenarios? It is to educate us in our Free Agency so that we willfully obey and enjoy the benefit that comes from doing so.

This is a good one! Rewrite Ephesians, "It is by persuasion you have been saved." Great stuff!</font>[/QUOTE]You are asleep at the wheel! "For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH" (a matter of persuasion). ALL belief is the result of persuasion! You cannot have belief without being persuaded! Without belief you cannot have FAITH! Thus FAITH is a matter of Persuasion!

Changing horses in midstream? What does this mean?</font>[/QUOTE]No I have not changed horses in midstream, I have not changed anything, I remain steadfast in my beliefs and in my Faith in God!

 

The author of these two sentences has not even thought about the ' . . . last Adam (Jesus) Who is a quickening Spirit'.

The Book of James was written to the twelve tribes who were scattered around the world. They were be believers and in chapter three, God speaking through the author reminds Christians of the damage that a tongue can produce. In verse nine the writer says in effect that you should not praise God at home or in the church, and then after service or mass go out and curse other human beings. In fact, in verse ten God says, 'My brethren, these things ought not to be.'

Why shouldn't a Christian person 'curse men?' The answer can be found in the fourth phrase of verse nine. Do not bash other human beings because they ' . . . are made after the similitude of God.' The Greek word for 'similitude' is {homoiosis} meaning likeness, resemblance or similarity of God Himself. In theology we call this 'the Image of God in man' as does the N.T. Scripture.

The Reverend A.M. Stibbs, M.A. and The Reverend E.F. Kevan Master of Theology says in their volume, "The New Bible Commentary" p. 1,123:

'A graphic picture follows in verses 9-12 of another characteristic of the tongue, inconsistency. A man's tongue, which is capable of praising the Eternal, and setting forth His glory, is capable also of abusive raillery against his fellows who are made IN THE SAME LIKENESS TO GOD. While this is of general application, James doubtless had in mind the attitude of Jews toward Christians, or even of bigoted Jewish Christians against Gentiles. They could be loud in their praises and blessing of God, but were equally ready to pour direful imprecations upon those who worshipped not after their manner, but who were yet as truly AFTER THE SAME IMAGE OF GOD AS THEY WERE.'

Adam and even were made in the Image of God. [Genesis 1:26] Noah, even after the Fall was made in the Image of God. [Genesis 9:6] And even 4,060 years after the Garden of Eden we find God creating sinners and saints in the Image of the Godhead. [James 3:9] Contrary to Calvinism God actually cares about all sinners. [I John 2:2] And in Romans 2:4 we do not find God drawing some to Heaven and tossing the remainder into Hell, but God speaking through the Apostle Paul says,

'Why do you despise the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering of God, do you not know that the goodness of the Lord will lead you to repentance?' Also, check [II Peter 3:9]

But, you see if you are a Calvinist you have been taught that sinners are Totally Depraved, he is dead as a corpse and that God has no access to the lost, except to autocratically regenerate them first and then they will walk in grace.

The truth is that sinners are made in the Image of God, and God has Being, mind, will, conscience and can and does make His own decisions. Every sinner has a body, mind, will, conscience and, like God, can either reject or welcome and love Jesus our Lord.

The Holy Spirit can move on the sinner with the truths of Jesus without first regenerating him, because that conduit, through which He ministers, is the sinner's body, soul, spirit, mind, conscience and will with which to receive Christ; [John 1:12] when the sinner yields to Jesus that one is then regenerated [Titus 3:5] and adopted into the family of God. [Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5]

Berrian, Th.D.

 

I said before, 'The Godhead has ordained sovereignly to allow men and women to either receive Christ or to reject Him.'

No, God has used and is still using His sovereignty in making men and women responsible for their sins and hope of everlasting life, not unless you do not believe John 3:18. He is not the Divine Puppeteer at the Father's right hand. And I am saying this with the deepest respect to Him.

God has every right to do as He wills within the realm of His Attributes. It does not diminish God to mandate the capability of sinners as to determining their eternal destiny. Does He not have the right to do whatever He desires in Heaven and in earth?

If the captain of the ship gives his authority to allow another man under His command to pilot the ship, does he not have that sovereign right to do so? His sovereignty is not aborted because of his decision in this matter. This was your example as to a captain of a ship.

Did God diminish His sovereignty when He turned responsibility for the Garden of Eden into the hands and care of Adam and Eve? By the same token, He convicts and convinces sinners of their need of Christ, [John 16:8] while they are responsible to His call to grace. [John 3:16]

Once you make that turn toward Calvinism you, at some point, must realize that you make God the Author of sin and the Lord as being discriminatory.

First God is made the Author of sin, because nothing can happen apart from His sovereign actions in sinners or saints. So when a sinner or a Christian sins it is not because he rebels against God, but because He is sovereign in making it happen, perhaps to train us to be more godly. Since nothing happens apart from His ordaining it, even our failures Christians can be attributed to the Lord, and yet He makes the sinner or saint responsible on their future judgment days. First, He causes us to sin and then will hold us responsible for our transgressions.

Biblical theology does not teach the above mantra. If Christians fail it is because they are drawn away because of their lust for that particular sin. Jesus never Authors sin in our lives because I Corinthians 10:13 says,

'There has no temptation taken you but such is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a WAY TO ESCAPE, that you may be able to bear it.' God does not sovereignly ordain sin in the lives of His people, because when we are tempted He always provides a way of flight away from said sin.

Calvinists discribe God as being partial in His alleged Divine act of election. It is based solely on His decision to select some for Heaven while wilfully damning the rest of humankind. And most Calvinists do not even know why He does this, while some say and think that He gets some kind of glory and praise out of His infinite power.

I have read Rev. Jonathan Edwards sermon on "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," and what he preaches is true. God is God of vengeance and in Hell He will have no sorrow as to their eternal destruction, and timeless torments. Many Christian pastors 'soft peddle' the Gospel when the truth is that He is holding sinners over Hell, and in some cases tomorrow will be too late.

In Edwards own words, 'But when once the day of mercy is past, your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to your welfare . . . . for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath.'

But, for now ' . . . He is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.' [II Peter 3:9] In the light of Rev. Edward's clear understanding of God's view of Hell, and the anger of the Lord toward Christ rejecters, now is our only opportunity to believe on the Son and to live for Him. According to the Apostle Peter, He is impartial as to His love for the lost.

 

johnp,

Can the Lord sin?

I hope you will agree with me that He cannot sin because it is in opposition to His attribute of Divine holiness.

So there are things that God cannot do. Right?

 

Ray.

Do we dare judge Him?

I haven't read your previous post, I'm under pressure at the moment, I will do so as soon as I can.

Right. But I don't think we can say what is and what is not. He makes the rules and what He says is sin is sin. That is regardless of what we think is sin. Get what I mean?

An example can be seen with God asking the Devil, "Have you seen my servant Job?" And the statement that God cannot tempt.
Here I make only the judgement that both statements are true. That's at one level but my mind says that was tempting the Devil to make a move.
He says He does not lie. But He puts lying spirits in the mouth's of men and sends deceptive spirits?
It should make us cautious. We cannot judge Him.

He is my Father and I have placed my trust in Him.

johnp.