Featured T - Total Depravity

Inspector Javert

Hello IJ,

The "problem" is actually your mis-reading,and speculation on what a human man says....then projecting and offering it ,in a way the man did not.Let me pull out where and how you did this, because all of you do this over and over.....maybe if you see it ....you will cease and desist.

Where did he say that God....NEEDED.....anything as you allege?
When you project your own wrong ideas about God....[The God of Calvinism] You go where the writer did not.He did not use that word...so do not insert it for him,He could have wrote that if he wanted to, but he did not.
No one wants to defend an idea that the accuser supplies for them.So stop it:wavey:

The fact that evil exists in a created universe indicates the Creator has a Holy, just, and righteous purpose for it.To vainly speculate that you or others could help God out by suggesting better ways, or how you might have done things ,is why JOB 38-39 is in scripture;

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

So you say my friend...however upon closer examination your objection will be over-ruled as defective:thumbsup:

Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions,
evil could never have started without God’s active decree,
and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will.
God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”([13] Cheung, Vincent. “Problem of Evil,” )

This was answered in my lengthy quotes from both Calvin and Pink...I refer you to it. While God has ONE will of decree......What He will's for man is obeyed or not obeyed by man....never perfectly in this life and will be judged as to what kind of works they were 1 cor3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

This classic kind of ungodly rejection should not take place.No Christian believes or speaks about God in this way....so what is the problem that causes YOU and your friends to say this all the time.
The problem is with you ,and your wrong views of the attributes of the biblical God....over time God willing....you will see this more clearly.

Where do you get off saying that HE[God} has no real intention???? to do anything! Or...he has no ACTUAL DESIRE....???
If you have these kind of thoughts and all of you seem to be plagued by them...it is time to re-examine your theological conclusions...they are off the rails....It is not the Cal...it is you and your friends...feeding on hate sites...devoted to undermining the Truth of God. You are welcome to view as you will...we also are welcome do see it as we do.

this is the same kind of statement....you turn every discussion into a watershed event...once you go off from the historic confessions of faith...you turn into an avalanche of error.

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The anthropomorphic language used in scripture is another discussion.

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Anything that takes place was decreed...or it would not take place,yet the decree is not the cause.....do you understand that?

Judas was not told...go betray me.....then Judas said ...no way...i do not want to...but I feel the pressure to betray you as the power of the decree overwhelms me???? Judas wanted the silver...he got what he wanted.then he got the results of his evil choice....
If team anti cal jihad would spend more time welcoming truth than inventing semantical ,philosophical , reasonings, ...you could be helping understand it even more...by now.

Once you are off track...you make this kind of evil accusation about the biblical God.

Blaming God for mans sin...is what Adam did.....the woman you gave me
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

..

When the Godhead made the Covenant of Redemption.....they did not need your help thinking it out...as shocking as that might be to you.That is what it was perfectly planned before the world was;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

This is why you and the others are to be rejected...it is always blame God for mans sin....proving the truth of Romans 5....Adam was federal head for all sinners.

I agree that the caricature that you men offer...is very unscriptural.
I recommend the Baptist Cathechism with Commentary, followed by the 1689 Confession of faith, then Some Dagg, then some Boyce, then some John Murray redemption accomplished and applied...as a remedy to what ails you.

 

Correct, if babies are born wicked sinners, why should they receive special grace?

Truth is, almost nobody truly believes babies are sinners, and this is why nearly everyone, including most Calvinists, try to invent a way for God to save children outside faith in Christ. Deep down they know babies are completely innocent. But because of the false doctrine of Original Sin, men must depart from truth even deeper into error and invent false and non-scriptural ways of salvation!

Exactly, and this is what Jesus shows in both Matthew 18 and Luke 15;

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Jesus NEVER spoke evil of little children, he told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become wicked sinners to enter heaven? ABSURD!

It was also when Jesus spoke of children that he spoke of 99 "just persons which went not astray" and "need no repentance"

BINGO! We have a winner here.

There is only one time in scripture that the term "in Adam" is used (look it up and see for yourself), and that is 1 Corinthians 15:22;

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Does this verse say all men are born dead in Adam? NO, it says that in Adam "all DIE". That is FUTURE TENSE. You must be ALIVE to DIE. This is the only verse in all of scripture that uses the term "in Adam" and it actually refutes Original Sin, it proves that men are NOT born dead in sin.

What's more, this verse is speaking of PHYSICAL death only, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians concerns the physical resurrection of our bodies, not spiritual death.

False teachers have pulled this verse out of context and misinterpreted it to teach Original Sin, when in reality this verse refutes it.

There is not one verse in scripture that says men are born dead in sin. It cannot be shown.

 

In Adam.....ALL Sinned...as long as that is in the bible...your theory is not.
Willis hit the bullseye.

 

Since Scripture connects this group ( so as...) with all being righteous in Christ, either you are a universalist or that doesn't mean what you teach. Must be one.

 

Here you go, a perversion and abuse of scripture right before your eyes. :thumbsup:

The term "in Adam" is used only ONCE in scripture. It does not say that "in Adam all sinned" as Iconoclast falsely said, it does not say "in Adam all are dead in sin" as many falsely teach. It says that "in Adam all die". This is speaking of physical death only and is in the future tense. Even if this verse was speaking of spiritual death (but it isn't), it would prove that men are born spiritually alive. You must be alive to "die".

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The problem is most folks are ignorant of what scripture really says and believes false teaching like you just saw from Iconoclast.

 

That isn't in the Bible Icon, read it again.

Willis is the nicest, kindest most intellectually honest man I've seen on this board, but he's been lied to. He missed the mark unfortunately, and it is because of errant and un-Scriptural teaching like this. Divorce yourself from the Prostitution-enthusiasts like Augustine, and murderers like Calvin, and then you won't have these "Theologies in tension"....

Only man's Theologies are ever in "tension". The Scriptures don't create confusion. There's nothing "in tension" in the Bible....only in man's convoluted minds. Take away Augustine's "Original Guilt" pablum, and there's no secret to how simple the Scripture's teaching on the gospel is.....it's rather, (what's the word)....simple.

 

Yes...that's a lie. The Scriptures do not say in Adam "all sinned"....liars said that and, unfortunately, Icon seems to think that God did. Willis was unfortunately carried away by this wind of doctrine along with so many. :tear: I too was once as well.

 

There are two groups;

All in Adam...All born physically ....who remain in Adam...are dead spiritually and heading for second death.....

All In Christ by new birth,{spiritually born} or being born from above...have eternal life and continue on in the realm of life eternally....

Not everyone that is physically born......gets to be spiritually born....

That is exactly what it means.....

All Men are born ...in Adam......Not all men are born IN CHRIST...so
all that remain in Adam....die and go into second death
All that are translated by the Spirit are IN Christ...


All Men ever conceived physically...are in Adam

All men that are conceived physically in Adam......are not in Christ.{universalism}

A square is a rhombus.... a Rhombus is not a square:thumbsup:

 

Total Depravity Proven

Arminians are united in their quest to disprove the doctrine of man’s Total Depravity.

In their theological system, man has the remnant of an ability to do that which is commanded by God: repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, man still has the ability to make good use of his ‘free will.’

In order to justify their view of man, Arminians must find exegetical loopholes which, they presume, deny man is born spiritually dead, deaf and blind...God-haters by nature.

Arminians take up the gauntlet for sin ravaged, Satan-loving man.

Calvinists prefer to stand with the righteous, holy, electing God of grace.

I would ask the reader to consider Adam in the Garden.

He, unlike his progeny, was created with original righteousness. Though he had no proclivity to sin and evil, he managed to turn his sinless nature into death and darkness by a very poor use of his truly free will.

Arminians would have us believe they were able to undo what Adam did.

They, by the good use of their somewhat free will, were able to turn their nature into true life and light, by obeying the command of God to repent and believe the Gospel.

Truly, Arminians work miracles. For all men by nature hate the light. (John 3:19) Yet they did not need the regenerating, resurrecting, creative power of the Holy Spirit. No. They, though still sin-lovers, were their own source of true life and light.

Next, let us examine the ministry of Jesus.

Why could He not make a fraction of the numbers of converts as, say, a Billy Graham? After all, Jesus is both God and sinless man, while Billy is only sinful man, (though he may be worshipped as a god).

Jesus’ doctrine was perfect, while Billy’s is full of grievous errors.

Jesus worked unprecedented miracles. He walked on water, raised the dead, healed every disease and affliction known to man, yet when push came to shove, the Jews shouted for the release of Barabbas and the disciples abandoned Him.

Why? What was ‘lacking’ in Jesus’ ministry?

The lack was not in Jesus, it was in His hearers.

They had not been given the gracious gift of the Holy Spirit whereby the spiritually dead are raised to spiritual life that they may believe spiritual truth; whereby the spiritually blind and deaf are given eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual truth.

Do you, dear reader, have the eyes to see and the ears to hear and believe spiritual truth? Have you been raised to spiritual life from that of spiritual death?

If so, it is time to leave your Arminian idols.

It is time that all praise and thanksgiving be given to Him “who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did.” (Romans 4:17)

 

You have decided to break it down to physical vs spiritual, but that is not the context. Both death and life are spiritual, hence the connection (so as). Christ died physically but not spiritually, further refuting your interpretation.

 

I don't try to "disprove" something thats false to begin with.

 

Okay, I've read some posts about how Adam's guilt wasn't passed onto us. Now, let's look at a passage of scriptures and see what the Record of God says about this:

Now, how come these people died from Adam until Moses when there was no Law? Where there is no law there is no transgression, yet, a myriad of people died w/o the Law. So here's a prime example of how Adam's guilt was passed unto us.

 

Also men as image bearers{although the image is damaged by sin} still have in them ; the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

That is why at regeneration God puts His law in our hearts...to restore the broken Image......


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The death in Romans 5 was primarily spiritual with physical death to follow...In genesis Adam was told...in THE DAY you eat of the fruit...dying thou shalt surely die....however physical death did not come first...the way to the tree of life was blocked.....so it was in that day Spiritual death first...and it is passed on to ALL In ADAM.....those who fail to grasp this..cannot rightly understand the full implications of the gospel.Adam as a type...the Last adam making right what he messed up!

 

Hi Willis :wavey:
1.) There always was law:
Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

2.) Death was passed on though, not guilt. You are still reading into Romans 5 the assumption that it is Spiritual Death or guilt of which Paul speaks and not DEATH. Divorce yourself from the pre-supposition that it is speaking of guilt and the entire chapters 5 and 6 will make themselves abundantly clear that it is primarily PHYSICAL DEATH of which Paul speaks.
Rom 5:12
¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses...
Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Even the animals and creation itself (though certainly not capable of sin) suffers the curse of death.

Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Hope you find this helpful :jesus:

 

Why doesn't it say ALL MEN Willis? How come it only speaks of men from Adam to Moses? Did Original Sin only affect men from Adam to Moses?

Men from Adam to Moses died without the law, because they had the law written upon their hearts and were a law onto themselves, just as Paul had described the Gentiles in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul is simply explaining why men from Adam to Moses died. If he were teaching Original Sin, he would have said ALL MEN. Isn't that so Willis? Think about it.

Paul is not saying Adam's sin was imputed to men, in fact, the scripture very specifically says they did NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. In fact, it was impossible, because no man had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But they died, because they offended the law written on their hearts and conscience, and this is what Paul is explaining.

After Moses there was written law for the Jews. The Gentiles continued to die because they offended the law written on their hearts.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

Original Sin claims that all men sinned "in Adam" as though we all personally sinned when Adam sinned. But the scriptures declare we did NOT sin Adam's sin. It is right there, but goes right over folks heads because they have been conditioned to believe false doctrine.

Romans 5 is CONDITIONAL. Death and judgment pass on men when they SIN just as Adam did, justification unto life passes unto all men when they BELIEVE as Jesus did.

 

To Brothers IJ and winman, why was the Law written upon the hearts of those who perished w/o the Law, and when was it written upon their hearts? Was it at conception? Birth? Later in their lives? I ask this in all sincerity.


If it was written upon their hearts pre-birth, then was it added because of Adam's guilt? The Law was added because of transgressions. IOW, it made sin exceedingly sinful.

I ask these questions in all honesty.

 

How about "Team Armenio-jihad" :thumbs:

Lots of vowels to make it roll better, even the "io" is nice......

Plus, it kinda sounds like "Ahmadinejad" thus invoking images of a horrific Islamo-fascist who dresses like Bea Arthur.

Your Welcome:thumbs:

 

I'm a dinner jacket:laugh: