Featured T, U, L and I of the Tulip

Winman!

You finally got it! The passage does not mention faith. Yet God says the Holy Spirit will "New Birth", regenerate, you and when it happens you really won't understand it:

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

If faith were required why did Jesus Christ not tell Nicodemus?

 

Wrong again! It was Thayer, not Calvinism!

1492 eidw eido i'-do or
oida oida oy'-da

a root word; TDNT - 5:116, 673; v

KJV - know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 667

1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold
1e) to experience any state or condition
1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
2a) to know of anything
2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
2b1) of any fact
2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
2b3) to know how, to be skilled in

 

Jesus did tell Nicodemus much about faith if you continue to read the chapter. The conversation did not end at verse 8, it continues until verse 21. Notice how many times Jesus told Nicodemus a person must believe to have life in answer to his question of how a man can be born again.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

You stop short in this chapter. When Nicodemus asked how a man might be born again, Jesus answered him that a man who believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life several times.

This was Jesus's answer to Nicodemus concerning HOW a man can be born again.

You pull verses out of context to prove regeneration precedes faith, and ignore the many verses that say faith precedes regeneration.

 

Winman:

Pay particular attention to verse 12 in the following Scripture.

John 3:10-12
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus Christ states: how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Nicodemus did not understand the "New Birth". Jesus Christ told Nicodemus he could not understand heavenly things. That is consistent with the Revelation to the Apostle Paul as recorded in the letter to the Church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is the reason that the New Birth or regeneration, followed by the gift of faith, is necessary!

You ignored, jumped over, verse 12 Winman!

No! This was Jesus Christ telling the purpose of the Incarnation and the path to eternal life. I have said over and over that Faith is an essential part of Salvation. We are justified by faith. That was the cry of the Reformers.

It goes without saying but I will say it. Those who have been regenerated or New Birthed" will exercise their God given faith in Conversion and Justification.

I did not pull anything out of context Winman. The Doctrine of Grace are consistent with all of Scripture. Freewillism is not.

 

I've shown some of the many places where the Bible clearly teaches that regeneration MUST precede faith.

Now, as promised, I will show some of the places where the Bible says plainly that regeneration DOES precede faith.

I John 5:1- Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Believing is the PRODUCT of regeneration. John is saying that believing in Christ is PROOF that you have been born of God.

That really could not be clearer. That is saying that regeneration is what makes faith possible.

Young's Literal Translation puts it this way:
Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:

Everyone who DOES believe HAS BEEN begotten of God. Very clear.

This is why John said in John 1:12-13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The new birth is not the result of a choice springing forth from the will of the flesh or the will of man. It is a work of God that makes faith possible.

That is why Paul said in Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who showeth mercy.

And notice the tenses. v 12 says "to them that BELIEVE (present tense)..." and verse 13: " WERE (past) born".

Once again you have John in two different books declaring that the new birth (regeneration) PRECEDES faith. He said it in his Gospel and he did not change his mind over the years when he came to write his epistle. He still thought, under the inspiration of the Spirit, that regeneration precedes faith.

John says this again in chapter 3, of course, just in case there was ever any doubt what he meant.

He recorded Jesus saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is not Heaven here. It rarely is in the Scripture. Heaven is a wing of the Kingdom, it's capitol city, but it is by no means the sum of it. Jesus' ministry was about the Kingdom of God on EARTH. His first sermon began, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND." Over and over again Jesus talked about the Kingdom ON EARTH.

The Kingdom is that sphere of God's reign over his creatures who welcome him as their Lord and King. But the Kingdom is spiritual. Natural man cannot see it. The carnal mind is enmity against it. You must be born of God in order to see and enter the Kingdom.

You enter the Kingdom the moment you confess and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord believing that he has been raised from the dead. But you will NEVER do that until, as John said in I John 5:1, you HAVE BEEN born of God. THEN you can see the Kingdom. THEN you can believe it and enter in.

There are other passages that I will not take time to expound here because Van and Winman complain about having to read too much.

 

Van asked for a response to his Matthew 23:13 interpretation. Here it is.

Let me begin by quoting two respected "non-cal" commentators and then I'll make a remark or two of my own.

Barnes:

Barnes probably has it right. There were people by the droves ACTUALLY entering into the Kingdom of God (not heaven above) under the preaching of Christ. The particular Pharisees to whom he is speaking here were NOT entering the Kingdom. But that was not enough for them. They also sought to prevent others from entering the Kingdom.

The doctrines of Christ that COULD cause men to enter the Kingdom were being contradicted by the false doctrines of the Pharisees.

So while there were many who WERE entering the Kingdom there were also many who never WOULD enter the Kingdom because of the false doctrine of the Pharisees.

The Pharisees stood on the road to the Kingdom, at the road's entrance, and guided passers by to keep on their way to hell and not enter this road on which so many were entering the Kingdom.

The text simply does not say that there were people who were ACTUALLY entering the Kingdom who were being snatched out by the Pharisees.

There were people who WERE entering the Kingdom and there were people who were kept from entering the Kingdom by the Pharisees.

Let's keep in mind how regeneration takes place. It takes place by the Word of God. If Pharisees can keep men from hearing the word of God, they can keep men from regeneration and entering the Kingdom.

Here is Clark- a Wesleyan Arminian:

He is probably right. It is not that that people were turning into the Kingdom and then being turned back. It is that the Pharisees KEPT THEM FROM ENTERING IN TO START WITH by their false doctrine.


Now, a controversial word ought to be spoken here.

I believe, like Calvin, that God DOES give A MEASURE of spiritual life to some people, and draws them to some degree and for his own mysterious, but wise and good purposes which are too great for mortal man to comprehend, he lets that small spiritual flicker burn out.

These are people who the Jude calls "twice dead".

This is what is seen in Hebrews 6, in my opinion. It is also why some seed DOES spring up in Jesus' parable, but shrivels and dies before it ever bears fruit. It is also what Peter refers to when he talks about people for whom "it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after they have known to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them..."

So even if Matthew 13 IS talking about people who really are moving toward the Kingdom but are prevented and turn back, it does not prove that spiritual life is not necessary for someone to move toward the Kingdom.

 

Very informative presentation of 1 John 5:1. I have both Young's and Green's Literal Translations but had not checked this passage through them. Both make it very clear that Regeneration precedes Faith! But of course an correct reading of John 1:12, 13 shows the same!

 

Hi everyone, I am new to the discussion board, and I figured this would be a great place to throw in my two cents. I have read all of the posts that have been made in this thread, and so I will not try to cover ground that has already been covered.

What I want to do is ask those who deny parts, if not all, of TULIP (namely Van and Winman) to explain three texts that I believe have not been mentioned yet in detail in this discussion:

Ezekiel 36:22-27 (NASB)
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

So would you deny that this passage is referring to the New Covenant in Christ? It seems that God is making it very clear that he will REPLACE the heart of stone with the heart of flesh. This is clearly a picture of REGENERATION, a divine act that God does prior to a man exercising faith and repentance.

Ezekiel 37:1-10 (NASB)
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
3 He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.'
5 "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.
6 ~'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

It seems to me here that in the vision of the Valley of Dry Bones, God makes it VERY clear that the bones WILL NOT come to life until God performs a divine act, causing them to come alive and 'know that I am the Lord'.

Romans 8:29-30 (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Now I am surprised that this passage has not been mentioned (maybe it has, and I just didn't catch it). I ask that those who deny any part of TULIP please explain how the Golden Chain of Redemption works.

These are just three texts that I think have not yet been dealt with by those who deny TULIP, or parts of it. I also would like to point out that the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is a beautiful picture of salvation as well. Did Jesus ask Lazarus to come forth? Could Lazarus have said "No thanks Lord, I like it in here"? No, Jesus COMMANDED him to come forth, and he did. One of the earliest church fathers, Irenaeus, mentions that the story of Lazarus is an example of salvation, and that Lazarus is a picture of the man bound by sin (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XIII).

I look forward to hearing responses from all of you. Thank you.

 

Welcome to the BB.
You have picked out several nice portions of scripture showing that salvation if all of God.:wavey::applause::thumbsup:

 

The book of Jonah is the best picture of God's sovereignty in salvation that I can think of.

Did God send Jonah to Nineveh because they had faith? NO! Their wickedness rose to heaven like a stench in the nostrils of God. But rather than wipe them off the earth, God chose to save them. That's why Jonah was so angry and tried to run from God. He knew God's mercy.

The only thing God told Jonah to preach was "in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown" (Jonah 3:4). In the very next verse we read "then the people of Nineveh believed in God". That is clearly a work of God, not man. These people did not even know who God was and yet they believed? That is God given faith. It's a picture of our own salvation that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We did not seek God any more than the people of Nineveh did. God sought us.

 

You keep making the same common mistake in this, as the biblical model for NT view of Election is that God foreknew/predestined his own people to getsaved by INDIVIDUAl basis, by act of His own Sovereign Will, not regarding to 'seeing: us placing faith in christ, as He based it upon His own selection!

And call it what you want, but until/unless the holy spirit quickensus/enables us to be able to respond to jesus, we will be stuck in our dead spiritual state!

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

That is incorrect Amy, the scriptures say the people of Nineveh believed.

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Now, could the people of Nineveh believe Jonah's prophecy before it was given? NO. No one can believe something they do not know. But when they heard the word of God from Jonah, they then believed and repented. When they repented, then God repented of destroying Nineveh.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God saw that they turned from sin demonstrating their faith, and so God repented of destroying Nineveh.

Now, you are correct, God first sought the people of Nineveh. But when the people of Nineveh heard the word of God, they then sought God.

 

Amy never said that the people didn't believe. in fact she said they did believe.

 

The only thing they heard was Nineveh was going to be destroyed in 40 days. How did they get faith out of that?

 

Thanks Jbh. That is exactly what I said.