Talking to the DEAD

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 11, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

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    Some have argued here that Christ and the witch of Endore are doing the same thing - conjuring up the dead and talking to them.

    Christ in Matt 17 with Moses (recall that Elijah was translated directly to heaven) and the witch of Endore with her claims to conjur up and speak to Samuel and see Samuel (though Saul did not claim to see Samuel).

    In case of Christ - all gathered on the mount of transfiguration saw both Moses and Elijah - Peter even wanted to build temples to them.

    In the case of the witch - only SHE claimed to see Samuel. (though I have no doubt that satanic spirits can APPEAR and be seen if God allows)

    Hint: Christ did NOT say "Hey Peter I think I see Moses coming up out of the ground. He looks old and grey and has two stone tablets in his hands".

    But this gets to a bigger question for those who argue that Christ and the witch are really doing the same thing - conjuring the dead and talking to the dead.

    If an angel appears to you as they did to Christ in Gethsemane or to Daniel or to Ezekiel - can you talk to them as perhaps He did or as John did in Revelation? Yes!

    If God speaks to you - can you talk back like Samuel "speak Lord for Thy servant heareth"? -- yes!

    So then if you really are going to argue that Christ is doing the same thing as the witch - conjuring the dead (and to do that you would have to suppose that God gives Satanic witches power over godly prophets once they die ---but a-n-y-w-a-y), you have opened a door not only to the RCC practice of daily communion with the dead but also to spiritism.

    What say you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 11, 2007
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  2. Ed Edwards

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    Their logic is way too similar to accusing Messiah Jesus of nepotism.
     
  3. Eliyahu

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    A good observation over all on this issue. Many points are correct!

    One thing I would point out is that God can do anything and Jesus as well.

    Human beings are different as we cannot raise the dead people to be alive. The Dead are sleeping as we read 1 Cor and Thessalonians.

    Now what I like to point out furthermore is that there is a big difference between El or Elohim ( Angel) and Malack ( Extremely Special Envoy of God).

    This Malack appeared in Genesis 22 when Abraham offered Issac, and about 50 times more in OT. Totally Malack may appear about 220 times in OT, but most of them are used for messengers or normal angels. However, almost 50 times were used for this EXtremely Special Angel, Theopanic Angel as we remember such one appeared to the parents of Samson, Manoa's couple. Also, He appeared to Jacob when he wrestled with an angel at the ford of Jabbok where he changed his name from Jacob to Israel. Jacob confessed that he has seen God face to face and called the place Peniel ( face of God). This angel was Malack.
    Manoa confessed he had seen God but preserved his life ( Judge 13). That angel is Malack as well.

    If you want to know further, here is the site, though it doesn't reflect the whole aspects of the word.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-...=6&verse=22&word=04397&show_strongs=no&page=1

    This Extremely Special Envoy of God was the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ before He came into this world in the human flesh.

    In case of Daniel we can notice that Daniel 6:22 uses Malack again, also Isaiah 37:36 Malack of Jehovah, Isaiah 63:9 Malack of His presence ( His Face). Zechariah often mentioned this Malack ( Extremely Special Envoy). I could not find any word for Angel or Malack in Ezekiel, where did you if any?

    Anyway, those were very exceptional cases before Jesus Christ came into this world, but after Jesus accomplished the Great Work at the Cross, many things have been assigned to His disciples and believers.
     
    #3 Eliyahu, May 11, 2007
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  4. BobRyan

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    That brings up another point that I am not trying to get into in much depth on this thread- but I already noted that Elijah is alive - because he was translated - God took him up to heaven in a whirlwind-like chariot leaving Elisha behind to carry on the work in the spirit of Elijah.

    As for Moses - in the book of Jude we find a reference to the "Assumption of Moses". So whether Christ raised Moses on the spot in Matt 17 or the book the "Assumption of Moses" quoted in Jude is actually correct about Moses being raised and then assumed into heaven after his death - either way Moses would have been "alive" as a resurrected saint in Matt 17.

    BUT THE OTHER option is to say that Christ is actually talking to the dead as the witch of Endor "claimed" to do. Since I have seen both RC members and non-Catholics on this board take that solution - I am bringing up the questions that it creates.

    In my post I am showing that when we see the saints of the Bibe talking to God or to Angels etc - is a valid thing for us to do as well. But since we typically don't have angels appearing to us or the voice of God thundering from the heavens - it is not something that is available to us.

    However the sin of divination and talking to the spirits of demons practiced by the witch of endor "as if" they were actually the spirits of the dead IS something that IS just as readily available to us today as it was to the witch of Endore.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, May 11, 2007
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  5. Eliyahu

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    I have no objections to Elijah case.
    As for Moses, I know there are some controversy on his death as Bible says "no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day " ( Deut 34:6). I think he died there, and was buried in Moab land. As for his body there must have been a dispute or an argument raised by Devil as we read Jude 9.
    But in general those must be dealt with as special cases, spoken by the Lord Jesus, the Creator. There is no example by the apostles speaking to the Dead or praying to the Dead, but we have the intructions in OT, Isaiah 8:19 and Psalm 106:28.
    Also, RCC often brings Rev 6:9-11 for this issue.
    However, we don't find any instructions to pray to the Dead or pray for the Dead in any bible scriptures while we are supposed to pray to the Father ( Mt 6:9)
     
  6. Agnus_Dei

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    Never heard Revelation 6:9-11 used as a Catholic defense of asking saints that have departed to pray for them. Rev. 6:9-11, has no such language.

    This thread is flirting on the fringes of another RC bigotry thread, since every post thus far has had some off the wall comment regarding RC’s.

    First, God is the God of the LIVING not of the dead. Catholics don’t pray to dead people. Revelation 5:8 is the scene John depicts in heaven as golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Therefore if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. Since prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God, the saints in heaven offer our prayers to God mentally, or they are interceding. In addition we are told from Scripture that we are indeed surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.

    We read in Psalms 103:20-21 Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will! And in Psalms 148:1-2 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!

    Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation 8:3-4, we read: [An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

    And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. see Rev. 5:8. The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

    So if you guys wanna debate talking to dead people, go right ahead, but leave that Catholics out of it. You shouldn't speak on things that you don’t understand.
    -
     
  7. Helen

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    What about Isaiah's warning

    When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this work, they have no light of dawn. Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they wil be thrust into utter darkness.
    Isaiah 8:19-22

    Since Christ/God and He ONLY knows who is saved and who is not, we have no idea, as humans, which contacts we try to make are actually demonic. Satan parades as a prince of light, and many of his followers as church people and leaders. False miracles abound and great emotional disturbances are no sign of spirituality. We humans are easily deceived. The proscription against talking to anyone, or attempting to talk to anyone, who is not alive on this earth (other than God Himself) is a protection for us -- because we are easily deceived. Marian apparitions are a famous example of demonic deceptions which play upon the biblical ignorance of those who follow them.

    Jesus, who was and is and always will be, God, had and has perogatives we do not have. He did not 'conjure' up anyone on the Mount of Transfiguration. He rather showed His disciples something of His identity. The witch of the OT and every other witch/conjurer/shaman/'priest' is claiming to have power over 'dark forces' or to be able to contact the dead or even speak for them. There is a radical difference between what God does and what man attempts, in other words. Mixing up the two may be ignorance for some, but is flat out deception on the part of others.

    On another note...

    My husband looked up the word "Malack" -- there are a few instances where that angel is not a theophany, but the vast majority of times it is used to clearly indicate a theophany. From Genesis through Judges it is always a theophany. The two or three exceptions come later.
     
  8. Eliyahu

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    You just uttered another Ignorance of the Bible which is typical to the Catholics again!

    Saints are not the Dead people, but all the Born-Again believers in Jesus Christ. Read the Bible here:

    1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:


    Can the sleeping men hear the prayer or understand what the people say?

    1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    ! Thess 4
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him


    Was Paul wrong in writing this?

    Praying to the Dead didn't come from God, but from divination and/or from witches, which is another proof that RCC has pagan practices!
     
  9. tragic_pizza

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    Oh, goody. Another possibly interesting discussion turned into an RCC-bashing party. whoopie.

    :BangHead::tear::BangHead::tear:
     
  10. Eliyahu

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    Is there any other church group which teaches Prayer to the Dead, than Roman Catholic?

    Yah, RCC which is the biggest shopping mall has many products such as Purgatory, Transubstantiation, Papacy, Obligatory Celibacy, Extreme Unction, Immaculate Conception, Theotokos, Infant Baptism, etc. Recently they seemed to drop one product -Limbo, from their product line.

    We can enjoy the eye-shopping though we don't buy any of them!
     
    #10 Eliyahu, May 12, 2007
    Last edited: May 12, 2007
  11. tragic_pizza

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    *yawn*

    My church does infant baptism.

    And no one prays to the dead. RC folks, and Episcopalians, believe they pray through departed saints. Asking a buddy for help, kind of.

    Not saying I agree with it, but it helps to understand folks before you go condemning fellow Christians out of your own base perejudices.
     
  12. Eliyahu

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    I wasn't asking about the Infant Baptism, but the trends of the Prayer to the Dead.

    As the other posters pointed out already, Prayer to the Dead is absolutely a pagan practice, which is unbiblical and distracting the people from the Bible teachings and from the Prayer to the God the Father. If that comments is a prejudice, the Bible may be a prejudice against all the paganisms.

    Infant Baptism is one of the important tools by which Satan could bring so many unbelievers into the church, and that's why Satan killed so many innocent Christian believers who opposed to the Infant Baptism. I wouldn't go further as I don't want to hijack this thread. I just listed many products sold by the Mall owned by RCC.
     
  13. DHK

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    Yes, but what does that statement mean? Go back and read the context.
    Where does it say that saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God. It doesn't. You are reading into that passage something that isn't there, only to justify a very unbiblical doctrine. Look at the verse again:

    Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (ASV)

    Where does it say they offer the prayers of the saints? It doesn't. It says that they offer incense, and only incense. The incense is symbolic of prayer. Check out Psalm 141:2

    Psalms 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
    --Incense has always been symbolic of prayer. And so it is in Revelation 5:8, as well as in Rev.8:3 and in Psa.141:2. People offer prayers to God alone. God alone is worthy of prayer. Prayer is worship. To worship any other person apart from God is idolatry. When one prays to any saint such as Mary, it is idolatry, for prayer is worship of the highest sort.

    To say that the saints in heaven must be aware of our prayers on earth is pure assumption on your part. There is no evidence, not a shred of it. Since there "are no tears" in heaven it is unlikely that the saints in heaven are looking down upon all the heartache and sorrow going on in this world. Rather they would be sitting at the feet of Jesus.

    You are misguided. Where does it say that any angel or any other individual in heaven prayed for any person on earth. It doesn't. It simply says that the angel offered incense. Incense is not prayer. It only symbolizes it. No saint is said to pray for any individual on earth. What evidence do you have for that? None!!

    incense is not prayer! Please learn that lesson. There was no human there offering our prayers to God. This is heresy. Incense is simpy symbolic of prayer and that is all. Read the passage and read it carefully, and don't substitute prayer for incense.
    If you are going to post leave your insults at home.
    The fact is that there are many ex-Catholics on this board, myself included. I don't like being told that I am speaking of thinks that I don't understand, thus implying that I am ignorant. The truth, as displayed above is that you clearly do not understand what the Scripture is saying. Your post also reveals that which the Catholic church does not want to admint. We understand exactly what the RCC teaches. What they teach and what the Bible says are two different things. If you don't want to accept that, then name calling is not the way to go.

    Peter, Paul, and John, as well as Mary and all other believers are dead. Their bodies are in the grave. In fact it is interesting that they recently found the remains of Peter's body in Jerusalem. That doesn't to much for the RCC claim about him being pope in Jerusalem does it?
    They are all dead.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    It trust you can understand what James is saying. I trust you can understand why funerals are held. Funerals are not held for the living. They don't bury the living. Jesus said: "Let the dead bury the dead," Praying to Mary or Peter is praying to the dead. The resurrection has not yet taken place. And until it does all the Catholic prayers to the "saints" in heaven is nothing more than praying to the dead. The RCC redefines words to make-believe they are not praying to the dead, but pretending not to be doing something when you are indeed doing something, doesn't change the facts, doest it?
    It doesn't matter what the RCC says. What matters is what the Bible says. I think enough evidence from the Bible has been given. The question is: Will you accept the evidence from the Bible that has been given?
     
  14. DHK

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    We understand perfectly. But we don't redefine and accept a practice when the Bible says otherwise.
     
  15. tragic_pizza

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    OK.

    So not doing prayer through the dead is OK, and so is making umpteen thousand threads to attack people that do.

    Got it. More hijinks from the wonderful world of Fundamentalism.
     
  16. DHK

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    The Bible calls praying to the dead/through the dead, (a matter of semantics) necromancy, a practice soundly condemned in the Bible. Check it out for yourself, instead of throwing about veiled attacks.
     
  17. Agnus_Dei

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    Well Eliyahu, for your information Catholicism isn’t the only ones that ask our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession. Eastern Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians and even some Anglicans all practice this practices, which means that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth.

    Just as you were unable to demonstrate any Early Church Fathers that spoke out against the Real Presence, you will be hard pressed to do the same regarding the communion of saints. So by all means knock yourself out and show the class.

    In addition Eliyahu you are majorly confused concerning those brothers and sisters in Christ that have passed on. You seem to suggest that they are dead…again the Word of God

    John 11:26 Jesus says: ...and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Hmmm…all this talk of “praying to the Dead, when those of whom we are speaking of aren’t even dead!

    Luke 20:38 Jesus says again, Now He is not God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to Him. Now, if God is not the God of the dead, and if the saints are no longer living, then God is no longer their God? When you die, will God cease to be your God Eliyahu?

    If you will concede that the Saints are alive, is it reasonable then to suppose that these same Saints, who prayed for each other and for all Christians while on earth, would lose interest in us once they reach the kingdom of heaven?

    Jerome wrote in the fourth century:
    If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?


    Just as the Saints were once in the flesh, so we are now. But in Christ, we are all part of the Mystical Body. Romans 12:4-5 says: For as in one body we have many members, and all members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Would you dare to say that when a Saint dies, he ceases to be a member of the Body of Christ? I don’t believe that any thinking Christian would. What then, would you believe their function to be?

    The early Fathers of the Church unanimously taught the doctrine of the intercession of the Saints. Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom all wrote concerning the intercession of the Saints as early as the fourth century.

    John Chrysostom wrote:
    When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies... but to His friends, the martyrs, the Saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.


    It is clear that even by the early centuries of the Church, intercession of the Saints was a well-established, widely accepted doctrine; a doctrine that has endured nearly two millennia, and only within the last 500 years has been denied, by other Christians.
    -
     
  18. DHK

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    It is clear that even by the early centuries of the Church many denied the trinity, a well-established and widely accepted doctrne, a doctrine that has endured nearly two millena.

    Does that mean that those who deny the trinity are right?
    I go by what the Bible says, not by what man says.
     
  19. Agnus_Dei

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    And just what do you think the first 7 Ecumenical Councils were about?
    DHK, where do you come up with this stuff? The Church never denied the Trinity. The Church has always believed that God is a single nature or being in which there are three (3) persons. Jesus is God, as is the Holy Spirit and both are God as the Father. The problem that you and others often over look is that to some within the Early Church it wasn’t exactly clear how the 3 persons of the Trinity existed together as God.
    What I look at is the unified nature of the deposit of the Faith; that there’s always been a recognizable body of beliefs and practices to which the Early Church Christians subscribed. However, those beliefs did undergo testing with unrecognizable ambiguities, which created problems and allowed for heretical beliefs to sprout.

    LOL DHK, everything you know is by what man has told you. Whether anyone likes it or not, no one goes to the Bible with an innocence of heart and an unbiasedness of mind. We are influenced by the grind of our own connotations or we are taught the Word of God from someone within a ‘tradition’ which they either caught like the measles from their surrounding culture or from some Bible or Seminary school. There is a certain doctrinal bias and it’s not an objective one to say the lest. To prove this DHK just grab a Bible and witness within the pages of commentary the doctrinal bias.
    -
     
  20. DHK

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    Bible-believing Christians never denied the trinity, but throughout the centuries that have many sects and others that have; one might even say thousands of them. Just because they deny the trinity doesn't make the trinity a false doctrine.

    On the other hand, you claim that (and falsely so) that "the intercession of the saints" was a well established and widely held doctrine. OK, I will agree with you. It was--by heretics, sects, and non-believers; not by Bible-believing Christians. Just because a wide number of people accepted it doesn't make it true. Just because a wide number of people denied the trinity didn't make their denial the right belief. Our standard is the Word of God, not man. So what if you think it is a widley held belief--so is reincarnation!!!
    Not true. When I got saved, I began to study the Bible on my own. I didn't get baptized until two years later. I didn't officially leave the RCC until two years later. In the interim I studied the Bible on my own As I saw that the RCC teachings that I had been fed for 20 years contradicted the Bible I was studying I was left with a choice: Either leave the RCC and follow God; or abandon God and blindly follow the teachings of the RCC which so clearly contradicted the Bible. I chose the former of course. It was a no brainer.
    So please don't try to contradict my testimony, and tell me it isn't true.
    God by his Holy Spirit showed me what is true.
     
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