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Talking to the DEAD

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 11, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Why is this important on a thread about praying to the dead??

    Because just as we saw in 1Cor 8 those who pray to idols-- when those idols are in fact nothing but stone - are praying to demons.

    Those who seek the dead - are in fact resorting to demons not what they "think" they are seeking for there is "no such thing" as a dead person that can hear them -- the dead saints are "the DEAD in Christ" they are "those who have fallen asleep" for which reason Christ affirms in Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the DEAD".

    1 Cor 8
    4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
    5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.


    1Cor 10
    18 Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the
    sacrifices sharers in the altar?
    19 What do I mean then? That a
    thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?

    20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
    they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.[/b]
    21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the
    cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #301 BobRyan, Jun 9, 2007
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  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob these are still personal pronouns, except that they are used in the plural. Of a necessity Paul had to use plural pronouns. Otherwise he would be listing hundreds if not the names of thousands of beleivers. You are really trying to stretch a point that doesn't exist.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Actually I think you would agree that OUR being caught up together WITH THEM is a case of personal pronouns used for REAL people (body soul and spirit)..

    I think that is the part where we AGREE -

    The part where we differ is where we see Paul continuing to use that same kind of reference to the DEAD in Christ. My claim is that it is the SAME context and same reference to PEOPLE not to the "toes of people" (i.e. something the person has) but to the people themselves!

    To the loved ones that have fallen asleep in death - themselves!

    JUST as the resurrection event and gathering together with them in the air is a reference to the people themselves!

    My last post above is to show how this links to this thread - those who pray to that which does not exist - are deceiving themselves and in fact praying to demons. Which is why the Bible forbids it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    --Note that the resurrection always refers to the body, not the spirit, not the soul. This is an indisputable fact. The body of Jesus died and rose again. If that statement wasn't true, then God would be dead. "God is spirit." God is not dead. The body of Jesus died. The body of Jesus was wrapped and put in a tomb. The body of Jesus rose again from the dead. It was a bodily resurrection; not a spirit resurrection as the J.W.'s teach.
    Even so them which are asleep (dead), physically in the body, just as Jesus was, God will bring them, resurrect them.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    --When Jesus comes and the rapture takes place, those that are alive at that time will not go before those that have already died (asleep). This verse simply says that those Christians that have died before the coming of Christ (rapture) will be raised first. It speaks of the body, as it always does in every resurrection. The resurrection always, always refers to the body, and only the body. As the body of Jesus was raised from the dead, so our bodies will be raised from the dead. Those that are dead will be raised first. Asleep is a synonym for death--physical death. The spirit is immortal and lives on in either heaven or hell. It is the body that is raised.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    --Christ comes. The dead in Christ (Christians that have been buried) will be resurrected. Their bodies, like Christ's will rise. The spirit never stopped living. The spirit at the time of death went to heaven. Now the body will also go to heaven and be joined with the spirit. God will turn those ashes of those saints who were burned at the stake in the Inquistion back into a new body, a perfect body, and give it back to the "person" spirit being, in heaven. The person is the spirit not the body. We are spirit creatures.

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    --We which remain (at the time of the rapture) will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, immediately--body, soul and spirit, and be resurrected with a new body and taken up to heaven immediately following the saintls which have preceded us. We will meet the Lord in the air. Of course all of this will happen so fast that time will be of no consequence anyway.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Clarify the two positions --

    Neither of them says that the spirit "decays in the grave just as does the body".

    Rather the argument on one side is that the PERSON (Soul) sleeps in death whild the actual BODY decays like the worn out tent of 2Cor 5 that does NOT EVER come back! A NEW Tent is assigned at the resurrection as 2Cor 5 instead of the OLD tent. At that point he PERSON is awakened. The PERSON is changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump - the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST.

    In 1Thess 4 Paul deals with the problem of those who think that because their loved ones died before the time of the second coming (return of Christ) they will miss out on heaven. Paul assures them "WE will not precede them to heaven FOR THE DEAD in Christ will RISE FIRST"

    By contrast --

    Some like you have argued that it is the decaying body of 2Cor 5 that "sleeps" and the NEW body -- immortal -- that is given in 2Cor 5 instead of the OLD decaying (turned to dust one) is innexplicably being called "the old body waking up" instead of the PERSON being asleep in the death and the PERSON being awakened in the resurrection.

    However in 1Thess 4 we have a very devastating fact that surfaced -- that is that the state and hope of the Christian is ONLY based on the facts regarding the SLEEPING saints and the day of their being raised from the DEAD. This was given as the solution to the problem of some who supposed that their loved ones died before the second coming and would therefore miss out on heaven.

    HOWEVER - if your idea of People REMAINING alive in death - were true then THE HOPE of the sainst SHOULD have been "they are not asleep or decaying - they REMAIN immortal and ALIVE with Christ so do not grieve as those who have no hope and are not aware that their saved loved ones REMAIN ALIVE in death and that you will join them at your death or when you are translated directly to heaven at the return of Christ"

    INSTEAD of that - Paul argues that the fact and focus of our hope regarding our sleeping loved ones is "The DEAD IN CHRIST will RISE FIRST" and "WE shall not preceed them in the air for the DEAD in Christ will RISE FIRST". That should not have been the focus for how they get out first RATHER -- if your idea were true -- Paul should have said "they are ALREADY THERE - they already went to heaven ahead of you".

    Instead the ENTIRE focus is on the fact that the "DEAD in Christ rise first".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Two interesting things we notice here - in Matt 22 Christ argues that the problem of the fact that "God is NOT the God of the dead" is sovled by the resurrection.

    In 1Thess 4 Paul argues that the problem of loved ones dying before the 2nd coming (return of Christ) is solved by the fact of the resurrection where the "DEAD in Christ rise first".

    Both problems being addressed by the SAME solution!!
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This thread will likely close. I may close it after answer this post because it well past 30 pages now (not because I want to get the last word in).
    However, Bob, you have one major problem that makes this thread almost impossible for intelligent discussion to go any further. You read every verse with rose colored glasses; preconceived ideas; with no objective mind whatsoever. Every time a verse is presented to you, you must force your theology into that verse and answer it with those rose colored glasses, blind to any other view point, thus rendering all discussion futile.

    Let me point out some basic problems:
    1. The definition of a soul. What is "the soul." You have you little definition of a soul, and use that keyhole method of interpretation, forcing that definition into every passage. But that doesn't work. "Soul" actually has many meanings. The meaning of the word "soul" must depend on the context in which it is used. Sometimes soul and spirit are used interchangeably, and then what would you have us to believe? Do you go chasing after some ethereal "soul" that is floating somewhere in space (atmosphere) try to catch it so it can be buried? Your theology is ridiculous in thinking that something so ethereal as "spirit" or "soul" can be buried. It is absurd. It is just as absurd to think that you can catch a demon and bury it along with the person that it inhabited. Are you able to do that Bob? Can you demonstrate it for us?

    2. Soul is sometimes, and even only rarely, used to refer to the person--as you would like it to refer to all the time. "The soul that sinneth it shall die. Here it refers to the person. Bob, if you, as a person, continue in your sin, you will die in your sin. That is the meaning of this verse. It is speaking of the consequence of sin, and the word soul speaks of persons.

    3. The NT people at the time of Christ were not scientists. Often the word soul is used iin the same way that we use brain. It is used interchangeably with a number of other words. The Bible speaks of "bowels of mercies." Mercy, or the ability to show it comes from the brain, as do also the other emotions. Most often it uses the word "heart."

    Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
    --These things we think about. They are formulated in our brain. The word brain was unknown then.

    Serving God is a matter of choice involving the mind or the brain:
    Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    The soul is used as the center of our body, the heart, the mind, the place that we make our decisions to choose or not to choose to serve God.

    4. Animals have souls.
    (Gen 1:20 MKJV) And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarmers having a living soul; and let birds fly over the earth on the face of the expanse of the heavens.
    (Gen 1:21 MKJV) And God created great sea-animals, and every living soul that creeps with which the waters swarmed after their kind; and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    --The same word that is translated "soul" for man, "nephesh" is used for animals here. Animals have souls just like man. What happens when the soul of an animal dies? Do they go into soul sleep? Do they go to heaven or hell? Will they rise again at the resurrection? No, of course not. The soul means "Life." It is the brain which gives them the life. When the life is extingueshed, the carcass is buried (as in a dog). The same is true with a man. The difference between a man and a dog (or other animal) is that man has an immortal spirit that goes to heaven or hell at the time of his death. It is that spiritual part of man that is able to communicate with God--something animals cannot do.
    Your preconceived ideas color the interpretation of these verses so that you can see nothing but lies and error. You won't even look at the truth and see the ridiculousness of your position. Bob, you cannot bury a soul, or a spirit. You cannot bury something that is ethereal. You cannot bury the "life" of the animal, unless you are strictly defining it as the organ that we call the brain. If you define the soul as the brain, the fine. But some day God will rase the dust and ashes of John Huss and create out of them a perfect and new body and it will be joined with his spirit. "We will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..." It doesn't say we will be given; it says we will be changed. This old body will be changed. God will change the atoms of this old body into a new and perfect body. He is able. There is nothing said about waking up--nothing. Sleep means death. That is all. Don't read into Scripture that which is not there. You read Scripture with rose colored glasses and are unable to see the truth of it.
    The dead and sleeping refer only to dead bodies and that is all. Souls don't sleep. Are you going to grab a soul out of the air and tell it to sleep. Don't be ridiculous. Are you going to command a demon to go to sleep? Can you command something ethereal to do anything? Not unless the soul is defined as the organ called the brain will it die and be dead and decomposing with the rest of the body, will the soul in any way be called dead. Your facts are your imagination.
    Where did I say that?
    And so every saint will that is alive when Christ comes again.
    And so they will--their dead bodies. It is speaking of a resurrection. Resurrections speak only of bodies.
    Their spirits are already there. In the resurrection, only the body rises. This is where you are confused becasue you can only look at Scripture with rose-colored glasses and cannot see Scripture objectively.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Ezek 18:4 "The Soul that sins it will DIE" is not a claim that only wicked people have funerals!! It is not speaking of the first death but of the SECOND death where "BOTH body AND soul are destroyed" in fiery hell.

    We already saw that when we looked into the specifics of Matt 10:28.

    But in 1Thess 4 we see PEOPLE concerned about friends and loved ones "PEOPLE" that have fallen asleep in death. As hard as that may be for the doctrinal view of some on this thread.

    Paul says that THE solution to that problem is in the resurrection of the saints "the DEAD in Christ" -- "those who have fallen asleep" at the return of Christ mentioned in 1Thess 4 and the rapture of the church that takes place at that time.

    Instead of saying the much expected (but never mentioned) "Take courage friends you loved ones are ALIVE and AWAKE in heaven in the presence of God they are NOT asleep in death" -- what we find in 1Thess 4 is (in essence) "the way we solve this problem is in knowing the fact that the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST at the return of Christ"

    It is the SAME solution Christ finds in Matt 22 to the problem "God is NOT the God of the dead" and then exploring how then can he say He is the God of Abraham since Abraham is dead -- Christ says it is because of the resurrection!!

    In 1Cor 15 Paul points too that SAME fact saying that those who have died have died in vain if they are not resurrected!! "For if we have hoped in THIS life only then we are of all men most to be pittied".

    in Phil 3 Paul argues the same point as his goal seeking to attain to the resurrection as his one singular goal. How perfectly "expected" given the focus that the NT writers had on it!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #308 BobRyan, Jun 11, 2007
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