Taught pretrib?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ed Edwards, Dec 16, 2004.

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Taught pretrib?

  1. i was taught pretrib and still am pretrib

    85.7%
  2. i was taught pretrib but now have another stance

    2.4%
  3. i was taught another stance but am now pretrib

    7.1%
  4. i was taught another stance and still stand there

    4.8%
  5. I don't understand or i can't deside

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Where you taught pretrib rapture?
     
  2. LadyEagle

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    I was taught pretrib but explored the alternatives.

    I remain pretrib because that falls in line with Scripture - Both Old and New Testament prophecies re: End Times, and....because Jesus would not let his Bride be beaten up His arch enemy, the Anti-Christ.

    He preserved Noah and his family, and He will preserve me from the Wrath to come. [​IMG] Hallelujah and Praise the Lord!

    Lift up your head, oh Saints of God, Your Redemption Draweth Nigh! [​IMG]
     
  3. JGrubbs

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    You should let the members of his bride that are being beaten up, persecuted and killed by the antichrist's around the world that Jesus would not let that happen. :(
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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  5. JGrubbs

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    LadyEagle said that "Jesus would not let his Bride be beaten up". I believe that Christians have been beeten up, persecuted and killed by many antichrists throughout history and even still today. There is no reason to believe that we will not face persecution by future antichrists and even the Anti-Christ. I believe the rapture will take place right before God's judgement and wrath, His bride will not have to face his wrath!

    I believe many pre-tribbers will be shocked when they are waiting for the rapture and see the Anti-Christ come into power. I believe many modern-day churches will be willing to follow this Anti-Christ. Revelations says that if possible he will decieve even the elect.

    I would expect him to make his appearance on something like TBN. :eek:
     
  6. prophecynut

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  7. LadyEagle

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    Christians have been persecuted since the beginning, however, they have not faced God's wrath. I was speaking of the Great Tribulation which will be an outpouring of God's wrath when the Holy Spirit is removed from this planet. And yes, He will be gone. The Body of Christ and Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ are what is holding back God's wrath upon this evil planet and the total takeover by Satan and his minions! The world has not ever seen what is to come!
     
  8. JGrubbs

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    I agree that the church will not see the wrath of God (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10), but I also believe that the elect will someday become targets of Antichrist's persecution (Matt. 24:21-22; 29-31; 2 Thess. 2:1-8; Rev. 13:3-10; 14:9-12)

    "The persecution by Antichrist during the great tribulation will be the wrath of Satan (Rev. 12:12), not the wrath of God. When the sign of the sun, moon, and stars is given in the heavens, the wrath of Satan against the elect will be terminated, the faithful to God will be raptured, and then the wrath of God will begin against the wicked who remain, ending with the battle of Armageddon." (Rapture, pp. 47-48)

    http://www.revelationcommentary.org/
     
  9. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    LadyEagle

    Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent?

    If He is "removed from this planet" how would the Trib saints come to know Christ without the God's spirit on earth?

    Who was restraining lawlessness before the Church?

    The one who restrains lawlessness is not taken out of this world or caught up, rather he is "taken out of the way" of what he was previously doing, which is restraining lawlessness.

    A similar example of something taken out of the way is Isa. 57:14, where obstacles are removed from hindering the faithful.
     
  10. Trotter

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    Actually, I wasn't taught pre-trib. I wasn't taught anything. I grew up pagan.

    I am pre-trib because that is what I found in the bible. I do not see all the other positions. Oh, I have read their proofs, but I still don't see them.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  11. LadyEagle

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    No one.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    JGrubbs: "I believe the rapture will take place right before God's judgement and wrath, His bride will not have to face his wrath!"

    Amen, Brother -- Preach it!
    That is exacly what this pretribulation rapture/resurrectionist
    believes. God's wrath starts the first day of Daniel's
    70th week.

    JGrubbs: "I agree that the church will not see the wrath of God (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10), but I also believe that the elect will someday become targets of Antichrist's persecution (Matt. 24:21-22; 29-31; 2 Thess. 2:1-8; Rev. 13:3-10; 14:9-12)"

    none of these scriptures teach that any Church age (Gentile age)
    born-again Christian elect saved person will ever be persecuted by
    the Antichrist. Special selected Church age (Gentile age)
    born-again Christian elect saved persons will be persecuted in
    the Church Age (AKA: this present evil age) -- those given the
    spiritual gift of martyardom.

    Revelation 14:9-12 speaks of Jewish Israeli elect saved persons.
    Revelation 13:2-10 speaks of Jewish Israeli elect saved persons.


    -------------------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
    --------------------------------------
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Actually, I wasn't taught pre-trib. I wasn't taught anything. I grew up pagan.

    I am pre-trib because that is what I found in the bible. I do not see all the other positions. Oh, I have read their proofs, but I still don't see them.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your personal
    testimonyh, Brohter Trotter. I sure appreciate
    it. I was taught pretribulation rapture as
    part of my introduction to Christ when i
    was 8-years old. That was in 1952 when
    i learned Romans 10:9 (version in Ed's
    head):

    If Ed will confess with Ed's mouth Jesus
    as Lord and believe in Ed's heart that
    God has raised Him from the dead,
    then Ed will be saved.
    I confessed first that Jesus was Lord
    in April 1952. That is 52 years ago.
    Then Jesus became my Savior as well as my
    Lord. I believed pretribulation rapture
    then and I believe it even more now.
    And i've got about a dozen topics worth of
    pretrib arguments already typed up.
    They show up frequently around this
    Baptist Board.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    2 Thessaloniains 2:14-17 (HCSB=Holman Christian Standard Bible):

    He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might
    obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ
    .
    15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions
    you were taught, either by our message or by our letter.

    16 May our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father,
    who has loved us and given us eternal encouragement and
    good hope by grace,
    17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you
    in every good work and word


    2 Thessalonians 2:17 shows the purpose of all eschatology - to
    exhort we saints to good works and good words.
    The pretibulation rapture/resurrection is the traditions
    a majority of us were taught. I teach the same traditions
    not from Darby, not from Paul Couch, but from Jesus, Paul
    of Tarsus, Peter, and John -- the traditions of the apostisles.
    The pretibulation rapture/resurreciton is part of the
    GOSPEL of Hope preached by the early Church. Yes, i use some
    21st century terms to talk about it, but it is the same hope
    taught in the 1st century (1-100AD). The hope is that one
    generation (not necessarily mine) will be transformed and
    glorified by Jesus without every having to die first.
    Sorry, but if the Wrath of God is poured upon Christisans then
    there is NO HOPE here, yet this hope is the hope taught
    from the beginning by Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John.

    I'll believe what God said and let other men
    be shown to be the fool :(
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    2 Thessaloniains 2:15(HCSB=Holman Christian Standard Bible):

    15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions
    you were taught, either by our message or by our letter.
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    I was taught pre-trib, but then I read the Bible and learned the truth. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Archeryaddict

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    ((((((AMEN!)))))) Ed Edwards
    Preach it Bro!
     
  18. Archeryaddict

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    The Pre-Tribulation Rapture

    Let me first say that our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as "escapists," trying to avoid all trouble or persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the rapture occurs before the Tribulation because scriptures overwhelmingly support a pre-tribulation rapture, as opposed to the a-millennial, post-millennial, and post-tribulation theories.

    I'll be happy whenever Jesus returns for His Church, whether it is Pre-Trib, sometime during the Tribulation, or at the end of the Tribulation. We can't be dogmatic over something that hasn't occurred yet. Whenever He comes is His will, which is fine with me. In the mean time, God has given us scriptures to examine. The following is a list of scriptural proofs that indicate the rapture will be Pre-Tribulation.

    16 Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

    Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
    The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

    Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
    This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

    Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
    In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

    In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

    Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
    Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

    Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
    The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

    Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
    A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

    Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
    After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

    Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
    The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

    Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
    Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

    Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
    When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

    Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
    First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

    Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
    When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

    Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
    Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

    Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
    In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

    Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
    If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

    Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
    If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (See "Who will populate the millennium?" Bible Study).

    http://www.odsgc.net/~cornerst/pretrib.htm
     
  19. Archeryaddict

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