TD Jakes

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Need 4 Speed, Aug 15, 2002.

  1. Need 4 Speed

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    I recently attended a TD Jakes conference in Charlotte, NC. Although I do support Jakes because of his teachings, I went to keep peace with my wife. The last day really disturbed me. A pastor from Ghana had given the invitation to come up front for prayer. A homosexual came up for prayer(I would not have known that if the pastor had not told the arena).He prayed over the man, layed hands him and the man was slain in the spirit. Not once did the pastor tell the man that he needs to saved and that Jesus can deliver him from that lifestyle :eek: . It's sad that this goes on. :(
     
  2. Mike McK

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  3. Need 4 Speed

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    I agree. I've read up on Jakes and his background.
    I've tried to inform my wife about his false teachings but she would hear none of it. I have even brought my findings before my former pastor, in defending Jakes he cited the droves of people who have been saved through his ministry. I wonder now how many in those droves actually were saved? :(
     
  4. Mike McK

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  5. Multimom

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    I find it a shame that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that human flesh cannot tolerate the over powering presence of God which will "on occasion" result in what is refered to as being slain in the spirit.

    Also, are you absolutely certain that Jakes is penticostal. I'm not certain that information is accurate. I will track it down and see what I can find.

    I'm sure I'll take some heat, but I struggle with those who feel it is their obligation to "expose" every teacher they "believe" is false simply because their doctrine is different.

    It is certainly your privilege to ask "who are they to say that he is annointed?" But we could ask the same thing, who are you to say that he is not.

    It is dangerous to exault oneself to the position of God ordained judge and jury.

    BTW I don't consider the "touch not mine annointed" as a mantra, but I do believe it to be a valid position. The word tells us if you believe one in leadership to be in a fault that you are to "pray" for them to see their error, not go public and disparage them personally.

    I remember about 20 years ago, Resurrection Band took alot of heat but I know many people today who say if it hadn't been for Resurrection Band, I wouldn't be walking with Jesus today.

    Is it just possible that God has exalted Dr. Jakes so that many could come to Christ? And to the person who spoke so openly about the homosexual young man at the conference. Were you present when he was couseled by Dr. Jakes ministry team after he was prayed for. If you were not, you have no way of knowing whether or not he was told that Jesus could change his life.

    [ August 15, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Multimom ]
     
  6. Mike McK

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    I can't speak for Speed, but being "slain in the spirit", as commonly practiced in Word of Faith circles (I know 'cause I was one), third wave, latter rain and the various "revival" movements just isn't Biblical.

    Until I see differently, I'm assuming that these occurances are (a) power of suggestion, (b)fake or (c) something more sinister.

    The point isn't that he is "pentecostal", but that he is a modalist, among other things.

    It's not my obligation to do that but it is our obligation to stand on the highway and say, "Hey be careful! The bridge is out ahead!"

    I'm a Christian with a Bible and I can look at what Jakes says and compare it with what God says.

    No doubt, but it's also dangerous to abdicate our calling to stand up for the faith.

    Actually, in this case it's not. It has absolutely nothing to do with questioning those who would teach false doctrines.

    Where in the Bible do you find this? If the Bible says this, then was Paul wrong for confronting publicly those who would spread false teaching?

    I used to be in CCM. I've worked with Glenn Kaiser. Don't get me started.

    Hmmm...the Bible says to have nothing to do with false teachers and yet God exalts a man who would lead so many people into false teaching. What God's not reading His own book?

    No, it's not impossible that God has put Jakes where he is. On the other hand, it's not impossible that he may be one of the people the Bible talks about when it says that false teachers will come among you and spread destructive heresies.

    [ August 16, 2002, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  7. Baptist Believer

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    Just check his not-so-modest biography at his website:

    http://www.tdjakes.org/about_bishop2.html

    He describes himself as Pentecostal.
     
  8. Mike McK

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    Just check his not-so-modest biography at his website:

    http://www.tdjakes.org/about_bishop2.html

    He describes himself as Pentecostal.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, BB,

    I went to that site to make sure I had my facts straight before I posted last time and if you follow the links to the Potter's House (Jake's church) doctrinal statements, the very first thing they say is they believe is one God with three manifestations - MODALISM!

    Mike

    [ August 15, 2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  9. Baptist Believer

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    Yep. I was checking the Watchman Fellowship's information on Jakes and they had a link to his website that was supposed to have a doctrinal statement on the nature of God. Unfortunately, it was a dead link -- he's removed it.

    I'm in Fort Worth and he pastors in Dallas and it is well-known around here that he is United Pentecostal.

    [ August 15, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  10. Kiffin

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    Yep, they say at their site,

    "There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "

    That is classic Modalism found among the Oneness groups. I did read a book of Jakes where he stated he believed in the Trinity but the doctrinal statement has a modalist spin.
     
  11. Need 4 Speed

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    I do not consider myself exalted and I am sorry that my actions are taken as such. It was not Jakes who prayed over the man but a pastor from Ghana as I stated in my letter earlier. Through this man's sermon he talked about DNA, a man's bloodline algo with various scripture references as to why men are gay. His sermon was so confusing. I am not a scientist, but I do know that Jesus paid it all. The cure for that young man is Jesus not having the man repeat" I am proud to be born a boy then take the man back on a mental journey to his mother's womb.In which the pastor then deployed the Holy Spirit to edit out all past humiliation etc. We don't deploy the Holy Spirit as you would some military force. The Holy Spirit is God. We are here to do his will not vise versa. I have learned a saying in the Army,KISS- Keep it simple stupid. If theses guys are so annointed then why so much false doctrine?Just preach Thus sayeth the Lord and leave out the junk.
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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    Ahh... Thanks for the clarification.

    Amen!

    An excellent question!

    Thanks!

    [ August 16, 2002, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  13. Bro. Curtis

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    He wears some pretty nice suits.
     
  14. Need 4 Speed

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  15. Need 4 Speed

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    Please forgive me. I did not mean to repost the whole letter. Just the first paragraph.
     
  16. Mike McK

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  17. Multimom

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    I took this from their website and to be sure that my position is accurate, I went to some other "Baptist" websites and checked out their statements of faith.

    Which BTW did show pretty much the same wording as that which I found at the Potter's House Website. Are you saying by your statement that you believe Baptists are "modalists". In all my years in the Baptist Church I never saw that to be the case.

    God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Jesus Christ--Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the cross, the complete and final sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. Further, He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He is now our High Priest and Advocate.

    The Holy Spirit--The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age, to convict men of sin, regenerate the believing sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service.

    This is copied directly from the statement of faith from The Potter's House ministry.

    Tell me one Baptist church that has a 45% attendance of men.
    There is one thing that I do find truly remarkable in our discussions regarding differing faiths and beliefs. Those of us who disagree with the general Baptist Doctrine have not once come in here and singled out a minister of the faith associated with your denomination and began to expose his error in teaching and trust me if we searched hard enough, I'm sure we could find someone one somewhere who would have plenty to say about "false" teaching in the Baptist church. Just because someone "thinks" its false doesn't mean its false. That means its your opinion.

    Your interpretation of scripture leads you to "think" its false. And those of us who are FULL Gospel could produce many and article to prove that not all doctrine in the Baptist church is accurate. But we don't. I wonder why that is? I may search around and just see what I can come up with regarding negatives in the "erronious" teachings in the Baptist Church just to show that it can be done.

    What I have begun to see is a lack of "fruit" in those who feel it is acceptable for them to pass judgement.
    Do you love and pray for Dr. Jakes since you think he's so "evil" or do you just sit around and talk about him as though he's the devil incarnate? I'm just trying to show that there are 2 sides to every coin and no one person has all the answers. I have tested much of what I have heard from Dr. Jakes and frankly I'm not sure that I agree with everything he says but I do not see him as a "false" teacher. He has led millions to Christ. Can your local church say the same.

    I love Dr. Charles Stanley, I respect and admire him, but his "television" ministry is so dry that I doubt many would say that they came to Jesus as a result of his teaching. I wonder if is possible to go to his church website and find the stats on salvations in his church? Interesting idea, maybe I'll check out some church websites and see if they list those kinds of things. Just so you don't think I'm comparing apples with oranges, I will search for churches with close to the same membership as the Potter's House which in the SBC will limit me to not much more than about 5 - 10 churches.

    Lets see what I can come up with. Is anyone interested in persuing that topic?

    I'm not accusing mind you, and I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just trying to focus our point and find out why it is that Baptist in general feel its okay to speak negatively and openly regarding the ministry of another. I have certainly never done that but believe me I could. Having parents who are both on staff at First Baptist Church of Houston, I could provide plenty of dirt on their former pastor of 30 years. Dr. John Bisagno.
     
  18. Multimom

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    I did a short search, here are the statements of faith regarding God from 4 promenant Baptist Churches.

    Their wording is slightly different but not doctrinally different from that of the Potter's House.

    Houston?s First Baptist Church:
    II. God
    There is one and only one living and true God. He is an intelligent, spiritual, and personal Being, the Creator, Redeemer, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is infinite in holiness and all other perfections. God is all powerful and all knowing; and His perfect knowledge extends to all things, past, present, and future, including the future decisions of His free creatures. To Him we owe the highest love, reverence, and obedience. The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

    FBC Dallas
    Theirs was the same but because it is in Adobe Acrobat Reader, I could not copy and paste it here.

    Second Baptist Church Houston:
    There is one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who subsist in unity, and also as three separate, distinct Persons.

    I searched all over the site for First Baptist Oklahoma City and they don?t even bother to post their statement of faith. They did however post on their ?home page? that they voted to drop out of the SBC.

    First Baptist Church - Atlanta GA
    The Triune Godhead
    We believe in the one true and living God, the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer and Ruler of all things. He is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, and is revealed to us as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    BTW, just because he is perceived to be "penticostal" by the local community does not deter the fact that his church lists and pretty much adheres to the Non-denominational philosophy and doctrines. Or is someone still under the mis-conception that all Full Gospel believers are "oneness" in theology?

    [ August 16, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Multimom ]
     
  19. ChristianCynic

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    I love Dr. Charles Stanley, I respect and admire him, but his "television" ministry is so dry that I doubt many would say that they came to Jesus as a result of his teaching.

    Are you claiming flamboyancy is the thing that leads people to accept the Lord?

    ... I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just trying to focus our point and find out why it is that Baptist in general feel its okay to speak negatively and openly regarding the ministry of another. I have certainly never done that but believe me I could.

    You just did.
     
  20. Mike McK

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    Multi, you haven't answered my questions.

    First of all, Baptists do not act as a monlith. There are seemingly as many baptistic denominations and as many baptist doctrinal stances as there are in the rest of Christendom, combined.

    It's not impossible that there are Baptist modalists, but I don't see how they could reconcile that belief to scripture any more than I can see how T.D. Jakes does.

    Classic modalism.

    The members of the Trinity are three distinct persons, not three manifestations of one person.

    Agreed.

    Yep.

    Huh?

    Right. There are a couple of problems here, though.

    First of all, no one here woke up this morning and said, "I think I'll pick on T.D. Jakes today".

    The subject was raised because need4speed is concerned about the impact this prominent teacher is having on his wife.

    Secondly, nobody here had to go and dig for dirt on T.D. Jakes, as you propose doing.

    He is a well known public figure who put his beliefs on his own website for anyone to see.

    And lastly, I think I speak for all Baptists here when I say, if you see anything as heretical as Sabellian heresy in our churches, please bring it to our attention so that we can smooth out our doctrinal problems.

    Right, but if it comes down to what the Bible says or what man says...

    You bet it does and nearly all of orthodox Christianity as well as many of the historic creeds and affirmations of the faith agree with us on this issue.

    Are you implying that you don't accept the view that the members of the Trinity are three distinct personalities?

    On behalf of Baptists everywhere, PLEASE DO. If we're wrong, we want to know so we can fix it.

    For the same reason that I didn't when I was caught up in the Word of Faith cult - because as long as I didn't question what I was being taught, I would never be challenged, I could plead ignorance and I could go on believing whatever I wanted to.

    Wow, you can get all of that from from a couple of anonymous posts on the internet?

    That's great. I thought the only people who could judge people's hearts like that were God and Ernie Brazee. :rolleyes:

    I don't believe he's evil (at least, no more so than the rest of us).

    I do pray for his followers.

    No, I believe you're thinking of Benny Hinn.

    We've already demonstrated that he perverts the nature of the Trinity.

    As Walter Martin would say, "Ultimately, every heresy begins with the misunderstanding of the nature of God."

    No but then, that's not what God has called us to do. However, I believe we have been faithful in doing what He has called us to do.

    Actually, I know several people who have come to Christ as a result of his ministry and I know countless Christians, myself included, whom God has spoken to through "In Touch".

    Are you implying that the only way to lead people to Christ is to be entertaining?

    No. At least, not in this thread. That would be too of topic. (HA! What kind of world do we live in when I'm the one reminding people to stay on topic? :D )

    Why did Paul feel it was OK? (second time I've asked you that, BTW)

    And therein lies the problem. You're talking about digging up "dirt" on someone and we're discussing what a preacher says and advocates in public. One is gossip, the other is scriptural.
     

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