Teachings of Zane Hodges.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by akrahnert, Sep 25, 2006.

  1. akrahnert

    akrahnert
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    Can I have a sane critique of the teachings of Zane Hodges?
    He seems to have a number of rather aberrant beliefs that distort
    the doctrines of Salvation and Grace.

    Please do not respond with any shallow, glibe, pithy or vain musings that are
    attempts at serious theological discourse.
    This is apperently a serious error coming from a biblical scholar and teacher,
    who reportedly, should know better.

    And please, let us not get into the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate if we can help it. I am looking for a Baptist/Biblicist perspective coming from trained Baptist pastors/Theologians who have dealt with this problem either in their respective churches or seminaries.

    In Christ Always
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    The Big Z rocks dude!!!

    (sorry)

    Lacy
     
  3. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    It would help to know what doctrines you are looking at in particular. I am a little familiar with the teaching of Zane Hodges, but it would help to know what area you want to deal with.

    The former pastor at the church my family currently attends wrote a book that shared some of Hodges beliefs I believe, and I would not agree with them, so if you can be more specific it might help.
     
  4. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith
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    Hodges

    If this is the same Hodges that wrote the systematic theology (in the late 1800's, I believe), then I have referenced this theology a few times. While I have certainly not read all of it, I have read several sections that deal with salvation, and it seems to be orthodox. If this is another Hodges, then........

    ...........nevermind. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  5. Rippon

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    The systematic theologian of the 19th century was Charles Hodge . ( No "s" at the end . )

    I used to be with the Plymouth Brethren for many years . About a decade ago I went to one of the summer conferences . I had a feeling one of the leaders was a closet-Calvinist . So before lunch I picked up Zane Hodges " Absolturely Free ! " . I held it up high on my face and waited for him to make a comment . He said , ( and we had not yet met ) " Do you believe that stuff ? "I replied absolutely not !" We shared a laugh and discussed our Calvinism . He gave me his reasons why he kept it under wraps .
     
  6. EdSutton

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    Likewise, I would have to know what you are referencing, here to give you an informed answer. While I would not agree with everything Zane Hodges might say, I am definitely in the "grace" crowd, and definitely oppose the teachings of the so-called "Lordship salvation" ideas.

    One little excerpt from ABSOLUTELY FREE!, that I do completely agree with is summed up in this semi-humerous presentation.

    Zane Hodges wrote these four sentences, which I happen to agree with, and I have offered my own little commentary afterwards.

    "Faith then, is taking God at His word." The crowd clams down, and begins to nod in agreement.

    "Saving faith is taking God at His word in the gospel." More nods, more agreement, with an occasional "Amen." starting to be heard.

    "It is nothing less than this." And the nods get more animated, and the "Amens" are heard, as the agreement continues, for this is getting better all the time.

    "It is also nothing more!" And the screams are deafening!

    Ed
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    I had never hear of him. In my research the Zane Hodges I found believes in two salvations. Of which there is another thread currently.

    He diminishes the cross, the blood, and the resurrection for which there can be no slavation without. He is heretical!:tonofbricks:
     
  8. Oasis

    Oasis
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    I too, would want to know exactly what you are referencing. I am familiar with Zane Hodges and the "no Lordship salvation" he espouses.
     
  9. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Rev. Mitchell why is it that everyone that disagrees with you is a heretic? Can't you just defend your position with Scripture instead of tearing your opponents down verbally who can defend their position with Scripture?
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Your hyperbole Doesn't actually make a point. If you disagree with me take your own advice.
     
  11. James_Newman

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    Do it like this, J.
    Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    yes becasue you have jumped in to something you know nothing of.
     
  13. Lacy Evans

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    That is the most presumptuous statement I have ever heard. You don't even know James.

    I promise you Mr. man, James knows Zane Hodges. He also knows Proverbs 18.

    All he did is point out the inconsistency of your statements. If you need to make them more clear, that is your problem. You need to communicate more clearly, Reverend.

    I'd also be careful with the casual bantying about of terms like "idiot" and "heretic" when referring to brothers and sisters in Christ.


    Mt 5:22
    But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


    1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Ephesians 4:31-32
    31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

    Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

    -Not-Reverend-Lacy
     
    #13 Lacy Evans, Sep 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2006
  14. J. Jump

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    Rev. Mitchell has been introduced to the Word of the Kingdom and as you can tell is VERY adamant against it even though he can not refute it with Scritpure, nor can he back up his own beliefs with Scripture, so instead of dealing in an honest discussion of Scripture he just lashes out at people that he doesn't agree with, especially if it has anything to do with the Word of the Kingdom doctrine.


    Rev. Mitchell and I have a history that goes back some time. And it's kind of funny that in light of our history he would say some of the things that he says, but it is what it is unfortunately :(
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    yea now you have jumped in to something you know nothing of. It is called in scripture a busybody.

    To preach two salvations is another gospel. To deny the gospel of salvation in specific passages is heresy. This doctrine goes way beyond a simple agree to disagree. It can direct people away from the true gospel. It is not possible to follow this heresy and have an appropriate faith in Christ.

    Jason accuses me of not discussing this subject and reasoning with scripture. The truth is we have had quite a few discussions on the matter in other places. And since you are not aware of the nature of those discussions or his demeaner in them it is best that you not involve yourself in what doesnt pertain to you. The presumtion is yours.
     
    #15 Revmitchell, Sep 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2006
  16. J. Jump

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    Mark they aren't accusations. It's just the plain ole truth. And if you would like to have a discussion of Scripture then let's do it. It would be much better than this name calling you have become accustomed to lately.

    Mark would you care to explain that? Is that another slander? I'm unaware of any demeanor issues, as you have certainly never addressed that with me in private, so I'm curious as to why you would bring up such a statement in a public forum?
     
  17. akrahnert

    akrahnert
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    I will be a bit more specific, although what is now coming out of the woodwork
    is what I was hoping to address, when in my posting I had indicated that Hodges espouses doctrines that are aberrant forms of the Salvation and Grace doctrines.

    It is the same that has been posted on another thread, namely the "two" salvations doctrine. I fear that most do not understand this doctrine fully, as I agree with Revmitchell that it is an heretical doctrine.

    I stress again that I want to have a sane and respectful discourse on this subject, as it is very serious and cuts at the heart of what we are to believe as Christians about sin, repentance, salvation, sanctification and ultimately eternal life.

    Of course the first comment I receive is a rather juvenile "Hodges rocks dude!" which is NOT what I wanted to hear. I thought I made it perfectly clear I DO NOT
    drivel.

    As for Hodges other teaching, No Lordship Salvation, should be taken up as another topic, yet I do see a similarity betwen this and the Two Salvations teaching.
     
  18. J. Jump

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    akrahnert the problem with the understanding of salvation is that most of Christendom today have combined two messages that were never intended to be combined.

    And most of Christendom thinks that eternal or spiritual salvation is the end all when it comes to Christianity. They think that because a person is saved from everlasting fire that everything is okay.

    A false and unBiblical understanding of salvation has Christianity run amuck these days with all kinds of false doctrines.

    I guess one could look at it as separate salvations, but if you wanted to do it that way you would have to say there is three salvations not just two, because Paul tells us in Timothy that he is praying for the whole salvation of body, soul and spirit.

    I like to think of it as all one salvation with different aspects. The Bible speaks of salvation in that I have been saved (spirit - based on the finished works of Christ). I am being saved (sanctification - soul - based on a mix of faith and works - book of James). And I will be saved (soul-body - a salvation that will occur in the future).

    Again the problem lies in the fact that most of Christendom is failing to separate spiritual salvation or eternal salvation and sanctification. The saving of the spirit and the saving of the soul are not the same thing and do not happen at the same time.

    We are spiritually dead, not soulically dead. And therefore when we are saved eternally it is our spirit that is made alive based on faith alone in the finished works of Christ alone as per God's grace. Anything outside of that is adding to what Scripture says about eternal salvation.

    Then and only then are we even in a position to bring about good works. And we can only do that if we die to self (soulical nature - that is our desires, will, agenda, etc.). And if we continue to die to self throughout the remainder of our life or until Christ returns then we will gain life in the coming age, which is the kingdom age - the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

    Hope that helps.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    He may be right, Lacy.

    Proverbs 26:17 He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.

    I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out who the dog is.
     
  20. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Much of Christendom uses salvation as fire insurance. They correctly look at spiritual salvation as being secure and cannot be taken away or forfeited.

    Yet, many others look at passages that talk about perishing, etc., see the works involved and conclude that their spiritual salvation can be taken away for unfaithfulness.

    Guess what?

    They both use the same rule book.

    How do these two groups come to opposite conclusions?
     

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