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Featured Tell the Truth by Will Metzger discussion

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 24, 2014.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is a difficult topic as one cannot deny either human responsibility or divine sovereignty without denying Scripture. This, Metzger claims, is at the heart of the issue in terms of the human will and fervent evangelism. I like the author pointing out that the "five points of Calvinism," being "formulated in reaction to five articles proposed by the Arminians" are far from a balanced statement. It emphasizes sovereignty in reaction to the extreme Arminian position...yet some seem to have taken Calvinism to the extreme of denying human responsibility in salvation. In other words, some become theologically blind through their theology (Spurgeon compares it to Nelson putting his blind eye to the telescope and complaining that he cannot see) and this reactionary statement actually becomes their soteriology. Anyway, the importance to this thread is the vital importance Metzger places on a Scriptural understanding of both towards evangelism.

    Do you agree with this statement: "A scriptural emphasis on divine sovereignty and human responsibility should be at the heart of a right view of the human will and a recovery of fervent evangelism today (pg. 109)"?

    Why or why not?
     
    #81 JonC, Sep 6, 2014
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  2. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I don't know. Listening to RC Sproul and reading Reisinger I would say no, but are they fully Biblical? They are men, but you are correct one cannot get past the notion of a FREE WILL. I was out witnessing yesterday and did some open air preaching (http://vimeo.com/105449316) I do this because of what I have been taught by some that God will draw the elect to salvation and they will hear the message and all I am doing is planting seeds. Back in the Bible belt I was able to get into some deep discussions with people when I open aired, but that has not been the case in Denver, probably because of the area, the location, and such as there are so many factors. One factor is that Greenville was a college town with lots of thinkers roaming the streets, while Denver is not, and so people are blind to the gospel and will not use their minds. Their god is Hedonism, pleasure, money, materialism, themselves, etc..This is a good reason why we split our efforts to not just open air, but also one on one conversations. We took one person to lunch yesterday so that is the kind of Gospel witness that I believe that both Conway and Metzger encourage, a witness that helps people, and we did it by also giving out tracts. Sure it would be great to have an hour long chat, but so many these days are so busy and running around that few have time for a long conversation, so tracts are great ways to share ones faith.

    Back to your question. Again I am not totally sure. This one I will need to pray and study more. It may be possible I have been deceived by certain misled authors whom have put the scriptures into their system of theology, when a reading of the scripture without the filter of the system would break their theology in this one area. This may indeed be possible as anyone whom can think would see Divine Sovereignty and Human responsibly in the Bible.
     
    #82 evangelist6589, Sep 7, 2014
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'd say that we should measure against Scripture, not authors like RC Sproul or Reisinger...and you are right that both human responsibility and divine sovereignty are apparent in Scripture. Metzger, and other authors, simply try to point out the truth...whether they are right or wrong remains to be determined. But I am confident that when you turn to Scripture you will see human responsibility and divine sovereignty through out. Perhaps "human responsibility" is not really another word for "free-will," depending of course on how you define "free-will." I liked how Spurgeon brought out this truth in his short sermon: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0442.htm.

    Good video, BTW. I take it you are allowed to preach on the sidewalk but where you were standing was not considered the sidewalk?
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Elect in the Son was what my school had us read for classical arminian viewpoint regarding election/salvation!
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would say that the fall rendered all guilty and accountible before God, thru His judgement and our willful choices, but that only the elect will meet fully responsibility to honor and come to him as their Lord/Saviour!
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yeshua1, have you even read the book that we are discussing? Your comments seem a bit off topic.
     
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I am sure there are thousands of books out there on this topic.
     
  8. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    How many times must you be told to buy the book and that your trying to divert this thread is not appropriate? Your gift for doing this is below.

    Yeshua go chase the Jack Rabbit!

    [​IMG]

    Even the Jack Rabbit has told you to buy the book!!

    [​IMG]

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830823220/?tag=baptis04-20

    [​IMG]
     
    #88 evangelist6589, Sep 7, 2014
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  9. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Studying Mark at the moment but will get back to the book today. Pastor preached a message on evangelism, however he constantly focuses on soul-winning and talks as if we are the ones that bring people to salvation, and he completely ignores Romans 1 and other passages that speak on Total Depravity. He never addressed it in his message, but uses a more sales tactic to train soul winners to get people to say a prayer. The Holiness of God is not emphasized, nor man's total depravity, and wickedness, but man in his evangelism theology is capable of turning to Christ in response to an effective evangelism presentation. But what about the Holy Spirit in salvation and God's sovereign election? I disagree with this approach so won't join their evangelism efforts. However I am getting a bit out of our study on Mark and the commentary/study guide book I am reading.
     
    #89 evangelist6589, Sep 7, 2014
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I guess there is a balance…I’m thinking of how Paul spoke of his “soul winning.” We are used by God to carry the gospel, so in that sense I understand how we are used to bring people to salvation. I also don’t like “sales tactics” or “evangelistic methods.” But I suppose they are useful in teaching people to witness…at least as an introduction to living the gospel (“as you go disciple”).
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    reminded of how we could easily say" Lord, they are cals treaching about you, or arms, or non cals, yet they are not part of our camp" Jesus and paul would say rejoice that they are willing to treach and preach the risen Christ!
     
  12. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    This is not a CAL vs. Armin thread so do not turn it into one! Also have you ordered the book?
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    reread what I posted there, its not as a us vrs them mentality, more as "we can be sure sure only our way to evangelise is right approach" answer!
     
  14. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    If you have not read the book nor are attempting to read it you are not welcome in this thread, unless of coarse you have a question about the book, which you do not.

    Yeshua go chase the Jack Rabbit!

    [​IMG]

    Even the Jack Rabbit has told you to buy the book!!

    [​IMG]

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830823220/?tag=baptis04-20

    [​IMG]
     
    #94 evangelist6589, Sep 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2014
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have to ask...what's up with all the rabbit pictures?

    OR...better yet..."eh...what's up doc?"
     
    #95 JonC, Sep 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2014
  16. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Some posters have as much sense as a Rabbit and when they act like one I will show them a Rabbit.
     
  17. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Let's park on pages 124-125 which is a discussion on FREE WILL. What do you say do you agree or disagree? This is one of those topics that has a thousand books written on it so it can get complex.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How is free Will defined by that author?
     
  19. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Metzger is right that ‘free-will’ is a philosophical term. If you look at the sciences…for example, biology, psychology, psychiatry, etc. you will find a stark denial of ‘free-will.’ It only lives in philosophy and is apparent in that realm of religion. But when we speak of ‘free-will’ we are typically not speaking of libertarian free-will. Instead we are speaking of the free agency of man…the ability for man to make his own choices. This is a biblical stance (read, for example, Proverbs). Man, however, chooses against God. I also agree with Metzger’s conclusion that there is a group who deny ‘free-will’ defined as human responsibility and fall into fatalism (they deny the responsibility of the lost to believe as a “second cause.”) You will see this in the distain that many have for a simple alter call (I’m not speaking of strict emotionally driven calls, but an opportunity to respond to God’s call). God has ordained the end, and the means through which that end will be accomplished. But God’s work in salvation is not in spite of the human will…instead it is through the human will. Spurgeon presents this as a battle with God victor.
     
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