Temporary Salvationist 1-8

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Herb Evans, Nov 17, 2006.

  1. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    ETERNAL, DELAYED, or TEMPORARY SALVATION and KINGDOM EXCLUSION?​

    (MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXTS)​

    He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. --John 3:36

    . . .He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. -- John 5:24

    . . . NOW are WE the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what WE shall be: but WE know that, when he shall appear, WE shall be like him; for WE shall see him as he is.
    -- 1 John 3:2

    He that HATH the Son HATH life . . . -- 1 John 5:12

    The following proof texts are used by lose your salvationists and Baptist purgatory advocates. The implications of their proof texts are self evident. We have responded to these implications. The above passages are sufficient to prove that Christians are given eternal life, when they believe, They can never lose it, and it can never be set aside or delayed.

    1. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. -- Matt. 7:21

    Not everyone that says Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, because not everyone that is religious that says, "Lord, Lord," is "saved" or born again. Notice, in this context, that Jesus says, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" - not "I knew you and then lost you." (Matt. 7:23) The "will" of the Father is for the lost to believe unto salvation and for God to “LOSE NOTHING,” who do so (John 6:39, 40).

    2. And five of them (ten virgins) were WISE [saved servants] and five were FOOLISH [unsaved servants]. They that were foolish TOOK THEIR LAMPS, and TOOK NO OIL [in their vessels] with them: But the wise TOOK OIL IN THEIR VESSELS with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And . . . there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh (for the wedding party not the bride-after the rapture) . . . Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so . . . go . . . buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT. -- Matt. 25:1-12

    This parable (concerning, possibly, the future tribulation, when Christ comes for the WEDDING PARTY and not the Bride) shows five UNPREPARED and UNREADY virgins that do not have oil (typical of the Holy Spirit) in their VESSELS. Saved folks are "prepared," having the Spirit. If not, they are none of His (Rom 8:9). Notice that Christ did not know these impostors. Both the foolish and the wise virgins took their lamps, the lamp or God’s WORD being a lamp unto their feet and a light unto their path. Yet the problem was no oil in the foolish virgins’ VESSELS.

    3. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord . . . I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant . . . Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

    For unto every one that HATH shall be GIVEN, and he shall have abundance: but from him that HATH NOT shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the UNPROFITABLE servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -- Matt. 25:24-30

    False teachers infer and even state that the servants in this parable are saved servants, who become wicked servants, by not using the given talents, burying them, and then going to hell for it. No doubt, many wicked, unsaved servants will go to hell, not taking advantage of the "free gift" offered to them. The "lose your salvationist" mind imagines that only saved people can be God’s servants. The truth of the matter is that everyone is a servant OF God (but not necessarily a servant "TO" God (Rom. 6:22), for He is Lord and King of ALL, whether they acknowledge it or not. Both faithful, saved servants and wicked, unsaved servants (him that hath not) are viewed in this parable. Cyrus in the O.T. was God’s servant. Note that Jacob and Israel, who surely were not all saved are said to be God’s servants, and in this time future time frame, the tribulation Jews will not be all saved but will still bear the name “servant.”

    4. There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive . . . in the world to come eternal life. -- Mark 10:29,30

    This passage is a real boo-boo for any "lose your salvationist.” If such a one's implications are correct to gain eternal life or to keep eternal life, you would be required to leave your mother, father, children, wife, and so forth for the gospel's sake either to gain or maintain eternal life. Still, this passage as others are instructive, informational passages and not conditional passages nor conditions for salvation.

    5. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY. -- Luke 8:13

    Either this is a saved person or a lost person, but it cannot be a saved person, who gets lost (even though the word "believe" is used). Devils believe and tremble and aren't saved, because their belief is merely intellectual and does not involve trust (as is the case with many "supposed" believers). Still, the term "falling" or "falling away," like "death," does not demand nor is it synonymous with "hell." Also, hell or losing salvation is not even mentioned. It must be read into the passage not out of it.

    6. For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF they should FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God asfresh, and put him to an open shame. . . BUT . . . — Hebrews 6:4-6

    If this passage teaches anything, it teaches that is impossible to be "renewed AGAIN unto repentance." If a saved person is meant by this passage, who becomes lost again, he cannot be renewed to repentance or re-saved! “Lose your salvationists” and “Christians in hellers” use these kind of proof texts to prove their view. Are saved people in this proof text? Absolutely! Does this passage teach that the impossibilty of saved people repenting after FALLING AWAY. Absolutely! Then, Herb Evans is wrong. Absolutely not! Paul is teaching the very opposite in this passage. Paul is using a hypothetical illustration with a hypothetical “IF” to show what would happen IF a Christian could fall from salvation. How do you know that? Because Paul continues by saying, “But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION, THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK” (Heb. 6:9).

    7. But and if that SERVANT say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the men-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which KNEW his lord's will, and PREPARED NOT himself, NEITHER DID according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: -- Luke 12:41-48

    Now, and in this prophetic view of the future tribulation, as we have already stated, all men are servants of the King (although not necessarily "TO" the King), whether they choose to be or not, for He is Lord of all. The unbelieving and unprepared, who do not the Lord's will (John 6:40), are the ones who say, "My Lord delayeth his coming." These unbelieving and unprepared and those, who do not know the will of the Lord, will have their portion with the unbelievers, for they are unbelievers who never were saved in the first place, even though religious, saying “Lord, Lord,” and so forth. Some will refuse the gospel and the Lord's will, and others may not know it (but still refuse to follow the light that they have), resulting in a different amount of stripes. Still, these servants are "unprepared" for His coming. All believers are prepared; all do not watch.

    8. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my DISCIPLES indeed . . . -- John 8:31

    Discipleship is discussed here, not hell nor loss of salvation. Believers should be discipled and be disciples INDEED, after being saved. Saved believers, who do not continue are not disciples INDEED, but they are still saved.
     
    #1 Herb Evans, Nov 17, 2006
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  2. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Herb Evans -- Preach it!
    :thumbs:
     
  3. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Temporary Salvationists 9-10

    ETERNAL, DELAYED, or TEMPORARY SALVATION and KINGDOM EXCLUSION?

    (MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXTS)​

    continued

    9. I am the TRUE vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch IN ME that beareth NOT fruit he TAKETH WAY: and every branch that beareth FRUIT, he PURGETH it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are CLEAN through the WORD which I have spoken unto you. Abide IN ME, and I IN YOU. As the branch CANNOT bear OF ITSELF, EXCEPT IT ABIDE in the vine; no more can ye, except ye ABIDE IN ME I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth IN ME, and I IN HIM, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. IF a man ABIDE NOT IN ME, he is CAST FORTH AS A BRANCH, and is WITHERED; and MEN gather them, and CAST them into the FIRE, and they are BURNED. If ye ABIDE IN ME, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

    Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my DISCIPLES. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue in my love. If ye KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall ABIDE in my LOVE; EVEN as I have kept my Father’s COMMANDMENTS, and ABIDE in his LOVE. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your JOY might be FULL. -- John 15:1- 11

    The fact is that both the saved and unsaved were most likely to be present in this audience in that Judas had not yet been exposed as a false professing branch, who never had abided in Christ. Such an audience demands that the COMMAND to ABIDE IN HIM is general applying to both the saved and the unsaved here. Obviously, the false professor Judas could also be commanded to ABIDE in him, having not yet done so. Dtill, he NEVER could be told to “continue” to abide in Him. The saved, who already were IN HIM (Christ) in some way, are commanded to abide IN HIM in both the Gospels and the epistles. New Testament Christians are told to ABIDE IN HIM or else suffer shame and lack of confidence (1 John 2:28). Then there is the passage (1 John 3:6), which tells us that anyone, who ABIDETH in Him, SINNETH NOT.

    Jesus is symbolically represented in this parable as the TRUE VINE TREE as
    opposed to the FALSE, CORRUPT TREES [Matt. 7:16-20] with their false and corrupt branches that Jesus and John the Baptist preached against; this vine tree is the TRUE one. It follows that the True Vine’s branches are TRUE BRANCHES as well. Here, branches are put into three categories: (1.) the fruit-bearing believer branches that abide in Christ, (2.) The non fruit-bearing believer branches that abide in Christ (IN ME), and (3.) Those unbeliever branches, who are not true branches, who have never abided in Christ. The true believers are IN CHRIST (IN ME) and are CLEAN THROUGH HIS WORD. They are symbolically represented as the true branches of that TRUE VINE tree.

    So, we have here, (1.) The true believers, fruit bearing branches that bear fruit and are purged to bring forth more fruit. (2.) The true believers, non fruit-bearing true branches, who may once have brought forth fruit but no longer do so, are TAKEN AWAY. If they already were NOT abiding in the vine, how could they be TAKEN AWAY from the vine (something that cannot be said of unbeliever Judas, who never was in the True Vine? (3.)The non-abiding branches, which do not belong to the true vine, are worthless, dead, imposter branches.

    Jesus tells this audience that the true branches, who abide in Him (IN ME), are CLEAN. Overly dispensational and invisible churcher brethren cannot be very happy with such a situation. For how did these O.T. saints (still at that time) get CLEAN, since Christ had not yet died nor arose? They became CLEAN THROUGH CHRIST’S WORD. So, not only do we have saints IN HIM but we have CLEAN saints IN HIM in the four Gospels. Also, overly dispensational brethren must need be disappointed at all these branches being IN CHRIST, for that is not supposed to happen until after the cross—NOT BEFORE IT. Of course, Baptist Purgatory heretics and lose your salvationists delight in trying to FORCE hell and the lake of fire into John 15.

    If one is positionally “abiding” IN CHRIST by the new birth, he is practically admonished and instructed to abide in HIM for discipleship, fruit bearing, to enable their prayers to be answered, and for their joy to be full. It also enables them to bear MUCH fruit—not to obtain nor even to keep their salvation or eternal life status nor their escape from hell status. The purpose of this parable is fruit bearing NOT salvation nor any escape from the Lake of Fire.

    Christians are incapable of doing anything in or by themselves apart from Christ, except that they abide in Him (per both the Gospels and the Epistles). This word “ABIDE” in this parable is a curious word with a wide latitude of usage in that it may mean, depending on the context, remain, tarry, continue, dwell (where we get the word “ABODE”), and so forth. Its interpretation is KEY to this whole passage. Depending on how one manipulates this word, one may read various meanings INTO this passage. The word ABIDE and ABODE (in the sense of dwell) can even be used in the future sense in that some were told to abide, not yet having reached that destination (Luke 19:5; 24:29; Acts 16:15). Jesus promises that He and the Father will make their future ABODE with them under certain conditions (John 14:23). The word “DWELL” is often synonymously substituted for the word “ABIDE” by the KJB translators (John 6:5, 6; 1 John 3:17, 24; 4:12, 13, 15, 16; 2 John 2; Acts 28:16). Of course, “lose your salvationist” crowd would like it to mean “stay, continue, or remain in Christ, so that it appears that they can lose their salvation. Now, notice that nothing was said in John 15 about the lake of fire and nothing was said about hell and nothing was said about the Judgment seat of Christ, which Jesus’ audience did not even know existed.

    Granted, the word “fire” is used, but if the fire in this parable is hell, it is the only place where “MEN” throw the unsaved (or the saved that used to be saved or who lost their no hell status) into hell, depending on the false teachers’ view. The false branches are not in the vine and are said not to abide in Christ and said to be taken by MEN to be burned. Note that they are cast forth “AS” a branch. This is a direct application to Judas, who never was clean nor ever was in Christ.

    Note that the man that abides not in Christ is NOT a true branch that is cast forth; he is a man that is CAST forth “AS” a branch. He only seems like a true branch. Big difference! He is from a corrupt tree. It is a very weak position that hides behind the veil of a parable in order to promote one’s doctrine. If you can lose your position IN CHRIST and lose your ETERNAL LIFE status and lose your no-hell status, then a man can be IN CHRIST and then get OUT of Christ and be lost. We reject such an INFERENCE, which is based merely on innuendo, using a nuance of language. Nevertheless, if the non-abiding is allowed to apply to Judas, who DID NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST nor ever has abided in Him, then the problem is solved. Baptist Purgatory heretics insist that this means that carnal, saved, believers are cast into hell and the lake of fire. Yet, are they willing to also insist that those carnal believers are no longer IN CHRIST during that time (1000 years)?

    New Testament saints are responsible to abide in His love and KEEP themselves in the love of God (Jude 21), but they are not responsible to keep their salvation. Only He that saves to the UTTERMOST can KEEP their salvation and their exemption from hell status. Obviously, once in Christ positionally, one cannot get out of Christ in the sense of the new creature being lost, but one can stop abiding in His love. It goes without saying that Jesus Christ kept His Father’s COMMANDMENTS and so ABIDED in His LOVE, without any need of salvation nor need to keep salvation. This is further commentary on ABIDING IN CHRIST, namely, ABIDING in His LOVE. We must keep CHRIST’s COMMANDMENTS to ABIDE in His LOVE (in contradistinction to the LAW’S COMMANDMENTS). This is all about discipleship, fruit bearing, and FULL JOY remaining in the believer—not about hell or salvation.

    10. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost . . . Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. -- Acts 5:1-10

    Here, all we have are two believers who lied to God and were killed because of it (1 Cor. 5:5; 11:30). Chastisement! Pure and simple! No mention of hell or losing salvation here.
     
  4. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Temporary Salvationists 11-27

    ETERNAL, DELAYED, or TEMPORARY SALVATION and KINGDOM EXCLUSION?

    (MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXTS)​

    Continued

    11. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done . . . And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said . . . Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

    Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon . . . Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. -- Acts 8:12-24

    Paul was able to tell that Simon's heart was not right (21) by Simon's words (18, 19). He rebuked Simon by instructing him to repent and ask forgiveness for the wicked thoughts behind his wicked words (22). He told Simon, "Thy money perish with thee (20)." Money does not go to hell but can be physically destroyed.

    Simon was certainly "in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity (23)," and in danger of physical destruction, but nothing is said, here, about him losing salvation, becoming lost again, or going to hell. In fact, it seems that Simon did repent, like a true believer (something which no one ever seems to notice). Another plausible explanation is that Simon believed only intellectually, even as the devils believe and tremble.

    12. Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: -- Rom. 2:6,7

    The "lose your salvationist" believes that he does not yet have eternal life, here, for why would he still be seeking eternal life? If this passage teaches one gets eternal life by well doing, rather than by grace, then it cannot teach that one loses the same eternal life, which he does not yet have. This passage views eternal life in its completed state with its future rewards (according to one's deeds).

    14. For IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: [Christians all die physicall] but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY [kill or deaden] the deeds of the body, ye shall live. -- Rom. 8:13

    Chastisement and excommunication, which bring about sickness and physical death, to saved believers, are definite possibilities, as outlined by 1 Cor. 5:5 and 1 Cor. 11:30. In any case the spirit is still saved (1 Cor. 5:5). No hell nor salvation loss is mentioned here.

    15. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. -- Rom. 12:21

    Overcoming evil with good does not gain or guarantee salvation; it does obtain a good testimony; it is a result of salvation and not a cause of salvation. No hell or salvation loss is mentioned here.

    16. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. -- 1 Cor. 10:1-12

    The passage compares the children of Israel sin as an "example" to New Testament believers. The fact is they were destroyed by their sin! How? Physical death! Nothing is said about hell! If they went to hell, it was for not believing!

    17. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. -- Gal. 1:6-9

    It is possible in a certain sense for a brother to be "removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ" and to get out of fellowship and get fouled up, for instance, to get involved in some perverted "lose your salvation" heresy (being justified by the law and/or works to get or keep saved). Still, the accursed are they who preach "ANOTHER" gospel. Nothing is said about truly saved folk losing their salvation.

    18. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not OBEY the truth? -- Gal. 5:7

    Obeying the truth, here, is clearly a reference to obeying the "GOSPEL" (Gal. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:18, 1 Pet. 4:17).

    19. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. -- Gal. 5:4

    Being justified by the law or works to get or keep saved (lose your salvationists), is a refusal to be justified by grace, hence a fall from grace. Believers are justified "only" by grace and not by the "law" or "works," hence they do not fall from grace.

    20. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
    -- Gal. 6:9

    Rewards are reaped here—not salvation. Believers don't reap or work for salvation; it is a free gift. (see objection # 24.)

    21. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. -- Gal. 6:1

    Believers ARE overtaken in faults, tempted, and restored to "fellowship but not to "salvation." They do not lose their salvation nor go to hell for having a "fault." This passage does not say that they do.

    22. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. -- Gal. 6:7

    Sowing and reaping is something both saved and unsaved must experience in this life. If a drunk (saved or lost) gets an eye put out in a brawl, such as that is sowing and reaping. A believer reaps only reward or loss for heaven. A lost man reaps degrees of punishment in hell. Nothing here about losing salvation!

    23. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF YE CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister . . . --Col 1:22, 23

    A believer's new nature will "continue" in the faith, grounded and settled, despite his flesh (which is to be counted dead). Even a sinning believer will be presented holy and unblameable to Christ, for at that time the carnal or natural man or sinful flesh will be destroyed and not be present. Still, the spirit will be saved (1 Cor. 5:5).

    24. Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. -- 1 Tim. 1:19, 20

    There is no doubt that ship wrecked Christians do exist. That is the reason for various kinds of chastisement to correct them. Sometimes, it is necessary, to put them out of the church, delivering them to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh (death), that their spirits may be saved (1 Cor. 5:5). The better alternative is that they repent and do not have their flesh destroyed.

    25. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; -- 1 Tim. 4:1

    Timothy prophesies of great apostasy, in the end time, and, no doubt, we are, experiencing some of that now. But God's children are infiltrated by unbelieving wolves—NOT BELIEVING SHEEP (Acts 20:29), like Judas, who was never saved (John 6:64). A lost man may be associated with the true faith. He might be a faithful member of a well established, Bible believing church. Then, there may come a time when he departs from "the" faith (like Judas) and that Bible believing church association, re-associating with some devilish cult. In both cases, he is lost, never having been saved; yet, he still departs from "the" faith, and his condition becomes even worse.

    26. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. -- 1 Tim. 5:8

    Sadly, many Christians (including "lose your salvationists") behave worse than infidels and deny the faith by their actions (as Peter did with his lips). And they will suffer loss because of it, but if they are true believers, as Peter was, they will not lose eternal life. The passage does not say so nor does it say anything about hell or losing salvation. "Lose your salvationists" read their views into the passage and not out of it, as they do with all their proof texts.

    27. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. -- 1 Tim. 6:12

    If "lay hold on eternal life," means that you don't have it yet, how can you lose it? It is possible for folk to have eternal life but not get with the program. It is much like "working out your salvation," or working out your marriage; you must have them, to work them out or to lay hold on them.
     
  5. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Temporary Salvationists 28-42

    ETERNAL, DELAYED, or TEMPORARY SALVATION and KINGDOM EXCLUSION?

    (MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXTS)​

    continued

    28. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began . . . That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. -- Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7

    Believers know they have eternal life; they do not hope they will get eternal life. But eternal life IS their hope. Again, if you hope to get it, how can you have it and lose it? Believers are already truly "justified by grace." We can only wonder about others who do not know for certain.

    29. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. --Heb 3:6

    Whether one considers the "house of God" (Christ's house) the local church or a group of Believers in any given time, we are dealing with a collectiv

    30. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling . . . Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; -- Heb. 3:1,12-14

    A "partaker of the heavenly calling" goes to heaven. He can't get unpartaken. A "partaker of Christ" can't get unpartaken! The warning is to someone who is not really a partaker of Christ or heaven, one who has an "EVIL HEART of UNBELIEF (Heb. 3:18, 19)." A false professing unbeliever, as Judas, will not hold his confidence to the end. A true profession, by a true believer, will hold until the end. Unbelief is a bar to heaven.

    31. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it . . . Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest ANY man FALL after the EXAMPLE of UNBELIEF." --Heb. 4:2, 11

    Notice that the scriptures are about the gospel being preached to folk who did not PROFIT from the preaching, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH. The "Lose your salvationist" would have us believe that they were saved and then lost. The falling is through UNBELIEF. The warning is to ANY MAN, who is found in unbelief.

    32. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; --Heb. 5:9

    We want to meet the sinless "lose your salvationist" that obeys Christ, in every detail (we have some scriptures for him). Obedience, here, is about obeying the "gospel," by believing it (2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17).

    33. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. -- Heb. 9:27-28

    Simply, we have here a promise to believers, who expect Christ to appear, who will not be disappointed. There are two judgments, after death, one for the lost for degrees of punishment in the lake of fire and one for the unsaved for degrees of rewards. This passage is not a plan of salvation.

    34. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? . . .Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. -- Heb. 10:29 and 38

    Notice that nothing is said about hell, in this context, and also that the comparison is with those, who despised Moses law (verse 28), and were killed (physical death). The first question is, if they were saved, "Where did these O.T. folks go after they died?" Hell or paradise?
    The second question is, if they went to hell, what is the sorer punishment? The third question is, if they did not go to hell, why should we? If they were "lost" and sinned willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth (verse 26), the proposition is irrelevant. In the context, Paul disclaims the "drawing back" of true believers, "We are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the SAVING of the soul"(Heb 10:39). "Lose your salvationists," by their own admission, are not in this number, for if they can still go to hell, from what is their soul saved?

    36. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; -- Heb. 12:15

    If you fail of the grace of God, in the matter of salvation, you don't have salvation. Believers do fail of the grace of God in other matters. It can and does ruin their lives and defiles the lives of those, whom they affect and infect.

    37. BRETHREN if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him . . . Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. -- James 5:16,19, 20

    Saved Christians DO err from truth, and may be converted or turned around, from their error (as Peter was). Confession, prayer, and conversion from faults and error removes the chastisement of sickness and death (PHYSICAL). Still, how can this mean that believers can lose their salvation and be saved AGAIN, when the "lose your salvation" advocates' own proof text (Heb 6:4-6) say this is impossible?

    38. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. -- 2 Pet. 2:9-11

    The Bible is filled with saints, who have blinded themselves and "fallen" at great loss but not from salvation. It is possible for a Christian to be blind, lose light and fellowship, and have darkened understanding through sin (1 John 1:6-10; Eph 4:17, 18). The admonition is to make sure that you really are saved, especially if you are falling or have fallen into sin. If you are or have, Peter lists the things, which can prevent these consequences. Note the "abundant" entrance into the kingdom compared to a mere entrance (so as by fire). Believers, regarding salvation, are kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5).

    39. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. -- 2 Pet 2:20-22

    The "Lose your salvationist" does not realize that a lost man can escape the pollutions of the world, through a head "knowledge" of the Lord Jesus Christ. A lost man may make a false profession and live as if he was a true believer by submitting to the peer pressure of his church. Eventually, something will ring his bell and he will be worse off than before he made that profession.

    40. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. -- 1 John 1:6-7

    The topic, here, is fellowship and light and what to do about sin that interrupts it (cleansing and confession should be noted in context, 1 John 1:8-10).

    41. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall REMAIN IN YOU, ye also SHALL continue in the Son, and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

    Believers continue in the Son, and in the father, because the Holy Spirit and the divine nature (these cannot sin 1 John 3:9) and faith in the gospel, are in and remain in a true believer. Paul’s style of "IF" reasoning does not demand the possibility that a "real profession" might not continue. (It does suppose that the "counterfeit" will not continue). Paul's "IF" reasoning does not always demand that both ends of the proposition can happen (1 Cor. 15:16,29,32).

    42. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. -- Jude 1:4

    Obviously, if such men crept in "UNAWARES," they were never saved when they first infiltrated a group of believers.
     
  6. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Temporary Salvationists 43-46

    ETERNAL, DELAYED, or TEMPORARY SALVATION and KINGDOM EXCLUSION?

    (MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXTS)​

    continued

    43. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous . . . Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. -- 1 John 5:3 and Jude 1:21

    If you are keeping yourself, "in the love of God," for salvation, you certainly are not "looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." There is no question about whether or not we should keep His commandments to keep in God's realm of love and fellowship and to prove that we love God. NOT for salvation but for testimony and fellowship! Nothing is said about looking for love unto eternal life, only looking for mercy unto eternal life.

    44. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. -- Rev. 3:5

    Overcoming is the topic, not works for salvation. Believers overcome by the blood of the Lamb, not by works. Overcomers (true believers) will NOT be blotted out of the Book. No hell here for the believer!

    45. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. -- Rev. 21:8

    Believers die once and are born twice. Unbelievers die twice and are born once. The believer's first death is physical death. The lost man's second death is the lake of fire. Overcomers by the blood (21:7) are contrasted with non-overcomers (21:8). If a Christian murderer is washed in the blood and counted dead to sin, such a dead man can no longer be prosecuted (Rom. 6:2, 11) nor can he even be called a murderer.

    46. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Acts 1:25

    But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. -- John 6:64

    Judas fell from "ordained" apostleship but not from salvation or belief of the truth. Judas did depart from THE faith but NEVER had THE faith and was NEVER saved. He even participated in the miracles and casting out of devils, in Christ's Name, but Christ never knew him (Matt. 7:22; John 3:27). He never had believed (John 6:64)! He was a grievous wolf that had entered the flock, but he was not a sheep (Acts 20:29). He was not saved and then lost!

    --by Herb Evans
     
  7. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Tank you Massah Ed Squared, I be trien. -- Herb Evans
     
  8. James_Newman

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    Brother Herb, I'm glad you brought this up. I think this is the most important topic in light of the soon coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, I do not have any time to answer your lengthy opening post. But don't fret, I will have all day Monday to try to think of a reasoned response to your arguments. I'll be dealing with the scriptures from the Baptist purgatory position, as we both know that eternal salvation is a gift, not of works. Although it seems some of us know it better than others, as you continually try to use the fact that some people aren't working as hard as you to prove they must not really be saved. Apparently you believe it is a free gift that you have to work for. But don't worry, we will have plenty of time to hash it out when I get back on Monday.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    Short answer #1 (I work weekends, so have no time to reply as detailedly).

    Belief (and/or obedience) of the gospel wherever and to whomever it is preached, is PROOF of eternal life, which does not become un-eternal because of the possessor's conduct. Eternal life is NOT the RESULT of belief.
    The gospel not having been preached in any area does not mean there are none in that area who possibly has eternal life since eternal life can only come from God who gives it TO WHOM HE WILL, not according to the recipient's conduct in life, or response to the gospel, but according to His mercy and will.
     
  10. Herb Evans

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    Jim, are you the James Newman, whose hero is Heretic Joey Faust or the other one, who does not believe that way? By way, I mean the heresy that has some Christians spending a thousand years in hell fire while the kingdom is going on.--Herb Evans
     
  11. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Well, just how does thethe recipient of eternal life acquire it? -- Herb Evans
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    Comparing Scripture with Scripture, here a little, there a little, a precept here, a precept there, according to Isaiah we see a sequence.
    Paul says (1) foreknown, (2) predestinated, (3) called, (4) justified, (5) glorified (Romans 8:29-30).

    Revelation reveals God wrote the names of His people before the foundation of the world in the Lamb's book of life (Rev. 17:8), therefore this was done before the stars were even created.

    So, eternal life was given to all the elect, in Christ, before the foundation of the world.

    The elect is born possessing eternal life, though they are, like the unelect, conceived in sin, and by nature at odds with God, until they are regenerated.

    The gospel brings that life and immortality, to light, it doesn't cause the life and immortality to reside in the elect.
     
  13. Herb Evans

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    Temporary Salvationists and Heritic Joey Faust

    Heretic Joey Faust, False Apostle of Uncertainty​

    For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. --2 Cor. 13-15

    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. --Rev. 20:12-14

    Heretic Joey Faust, the False Apostle of Uncertainty, has transformed himself into a minister of righteousness and legitimate Bible teacher. His end will be according to his works, and he should not mind such an analysis seeing that his system is based wholly on a system of works for millennial salvation to avoid hell fire and kingdom exclusion. Now, others have taken up his cause and becomre his disciples.

    When we first came in contact with Joey Faust's prepublication book and subsequent E mail dialog, Faust had carnal Christians killed at the JSOC, which he connected with being hurt of the second death. He cited Rev. 2:11 to prove this and insisted that you must overcome (by works) to avoid such a fate. Now, it seems that Joey is uncertain about his previous his Overcomer' Cult teaching told us that the breath of God kills the believer at the JSOC, and it then becomes the lake of fire (which at one point he had in heaven). He now emphasizes the lake of fire/second death at the Great White Throne judgment for only the lost. Heretic Faust contends that the carnal Christian, after the millennial kingdom, gets out of a thousand years hell fire and assumes the eternal state in eternity.

    Since Faust tells us that carnal believers are killed at the JSOC, they must be then considered DEAD. And the DEAD are judged at the Great White Throne according to their works (Faust cannot produce a proof text to prove that these dead Christians come alive again). If Faust says that the dead become alive after they are taken out of hell, he must say that both the saved and the lost both do so. Nevertheless, death and hell are then cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, which only Faust's overcomers are promised to escape. Since Faust has these carnal believers both dead and in hell along with lost unbelievers, we must conclude that dead carnal believers as well as unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. That is if Faust is correct! If Faust is not correct about Christians being killed at the JSOC spending 1000 years in hell fire, he is a False Apostle and a deceitful worker and must needs be marked so.

    -- Herb Evans
     
  14. Herb Evans

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    Temporary Salvation and Kingdom Exclusion

    The Temporary Salvationist’s Kingdom Exclusion for WHO?​

    Some formerly sound Baptists are beginning to teach Kingdom Exclusion for certain born again believers. The Joey Faust proof texts that they are using are mind boggling. Some go beyond Kingdom Exclusion, namely, heretic Joey Faust, who believes that believers will spend the excluded time in the lake of fire and hell. We have addressed a few of them. – Herb Evans

    The Excluded Unbelieving Professors in the Mixed Multitude​

    Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David . . . To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. -- Heb 4:1-12

    This passage is used by Lose your salvationists, Joey Faust’s overcomers’ cult, and some kingdom exclusionists to prove that some Christians will be excluded from the millennial kingdom and even put into the lake of fire.

    From the very first part of this passage, we are told that some will come short of the promise. The reason is clearly given; the word does not PROFIT those that do not believe in that the preached word is not mixed with the FAITH of them that heard it. Faith is an important ingredient in eitherTestament for salvation, regardless of what side of the dispensational issue that you espouse.

    The next thing that should be noticed is that those that do believe DO ENTER IN. For those false professors that still have not exercised faith, the warning invitation is given. TODAY (both Testaments) IF you will hear His voice, don’t harden your hearts or FALL through UNBELIEF. No carnality mention here. No adultery, fornication, idolatry—UNBELIEF! There are only two categories here—BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVING PROFESSORS. Those who mixed their faith with the preached word and those who do not mix faith with the preached word in the mixed multitude of scattered Jews in this dispersion.

    The Least and the Great versus the Excludees​

    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. –Matt 5:19, 20

    Matthew 5:20 is used by Lose your Salvationists, the Joey Faust’s Overcomers’ cult, and some Kingdom exclusionists, some of which believe that certain Christians also go to the lake of fire. The problem that these folks have is that they fail to read Matthew 5:19 with 5:20.

    This passage tells us that we as believers can break even the LEAST of His commandments and still get into the kingdom, but we shall have a lesser place than the great ones that do and teach them. Now, the kingdom exclusionist may help to divide for us the least and great commandments, which if violated are all sin, unless we go the Catholic route of Mortal, Venial, and Sacrilege sins.

    The rest of the problem is that Matthew 5:20 shifts to the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees, who will not even ENTER let alone be least or great. Why, because they do not have God’s Exceeding Righteousness; they merely have their own self righteousness. Say what you want about the Gospel period, Jesus still told the woman, thy faith hath saved thee and told Zaccheus that salvation had come to his house that day.

    What is clear in this passage is that these Jews would be excluded from the kingdom, who were children of the kingdom (key verse in the Jewish kingdom dialogues in the Gospels), because they were not believers but apostate religious leaders. The others were told that their righteousness must exceed this self righteousness.

    The Excluded Rich?​

    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. -- Mat 19:23-26

    Kingdom exclusionists are like Campbellites, when they see water in the Bible; only they go spastic over kingdom scriptures. Why Kingdom exclusionists and the Lose your salvationists would choose something like this exclude carnal or disobedient Christians from the kingdom, I’ll never know. Without any explanation, the only thing that they could exclude are rich Christians. And the churches need some of them.

    Still, the scriptures are not even teaching that rich Christians are excluded from the kingdom let alone any other Christian. Of course, Peter, unlike kingdom exclusionists, puts his finger squarely on the problem. Who can be saved if not any rich people? Jesus was teaching how riches can blind men to spiritual things and get I the way of salvation and conversion. Of course, it did not stop Zaccheus. Nevertheless, Jesus clears it all up by saying that with men such things are impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with him.


    The Excluded Never-Knowns​

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21, 22, 23

    Lose your salvationists, Joey Faust’s Overcomers’ Cult, and some Kingdom Exclusionists (some of which also teach that certain Christians go to the lake of fire), use Matthew 7:21, 22 to prove their theories.

    Well, Judas did all these nice things and yes, he was and is excluded from the kingdom . . . BECAUSE HE WAS LOST! NEVER SAVED! The problem for these folks is Jesus comment in verse 23. I NEVER KNEW YOU. Not knew you and lost you. Not now knew you and excluded you. But NEVER KNEW YOU. Praise de Lawd! Hallelujah! Does I have a witness? Thank you Jesus!
     
    #14 Herb Evans, Nov 18, 2006
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  15. Herb Evans

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    Temporary Salvation and Kingdom Exclusion part 2

    The Excluded Non-Born-Agains​

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. --John 3:5

    When I heard that someone was using this verse to prove spirit exclusion for certain Christians, I almost did a John Kerry. Clearly, the requirement for exclusion here is not having two births. We have here a physical birth (depending what camp you are in) and a spiritual birth which most will agree. Now, we see the saved and the lost here, the born again and the non-born again. Unless you can get undo one’s spiritual birth, you are beating a rented mule. So angels won’t cut it, having neither birth. Lost people can’t cut it, not having a spiritual birth. And saved people can’t miss it, having both births.

    The Excluded Unconverted​

    Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 18:3, 4

    But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. –Lk. 18:17, 18

    Why in the world anyone would pick passages like this to prove that you could lose your salvation or be excluded from the kingdom as a believer or be thrown into the lake of fire as a believer, is beyond us. The humbling of oneself as a child in CONVERSION, prideless, workless, simply relying on Jesus Christ despite how much of the details one knew.
    They knew Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Was that not enough! Does it not tell us that as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on His Name. If a man cannot see the lack of conversion as the reason for exclusion, he is blind. Children believe with ease, adults do not.

    The Unrighteous and Unwashed Excluded​

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. – 1 Cor. 6:9-12

    The spiritually blind Kingdom Exclusionists, the overcomer cultist, and the Lose your salvationist cannot see that this is talking about the unrighteous, but was is a little context to them? The believer is not in the “unrighteous” category; he is in the righteousness of Christ category. Notice the pejorative names; they are what believers “WERE!” But Believers are NOW WASHED in the blood of Christ. They are no longer to be called those things since they are counted dead and hid in Christ, something these false teachers do not have a clue about. Still, the believer may do as he pleases. But a true believer will be chastised, and although all things are lawful, all things are not expedient. You cannot be excluded from the kingdom because of lawful things. You cannot even be excluded from the kingdom for having bad music in your church.

    The Non-Spirit Led Excluded​

    This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. –Gal 5:16-21

    The believer gets the Holy Spirit of God the moment that he repents and believes, for if any man have not the Spirit, he is none of His. All believers are LED by the Spirit of God and are therefore NOT under the law. They do not always follow the Spirit, however, but they are always led—that is His part. The believer’s part is to WALK in the Spirit that is leading him. This is a bit of the same as found in 1 Cor. 6. Believers are washed and righteous. All things are lawful but all things are not expedient and we should not be brought under the power of any of those sins. Whereas the law specifies these things to the non spirit led, namely, the lost, the unsaved, the non-righteous, the unwashed. To the believer, they become works of the flesh that should not be named among believers, but they are, and we are being realists in this. In reality, the believer cannot do such things, for he is dead and his life is hid with God. You cannot put a dead man on the witness stand. Nor can you charge him with a crime (especially a crime that is already paid for).
     
  16. Herb Evans

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    Temporary salvation and Kingdom Exclusion - Part 3

    The Non Present with the Lord Excluded​

    Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. --2 Cor. 5:6-11

    This is a Joey Faust proof text for the lake of fire for carnal Christians view and being killed at the JSOC and exclusion from the kingdom. The idea here is that if you are good, you get the kingdom and are accepted and if you do badly you get a lump of coal and are not accepted into the kingdom. The problem is that the overcomer cult and the kingdom exclusionist can’t tell you how much good is enough to get you in or how much bad is enough to keep you out (so much like Catholics).

    Now, certainly we labour to be accepted of him. Should we labour not to be accepted? Should we not look for a "well done thou good and faithful servant?" But accepted for what? The kingdom? Where does it say that? Where does it mention “kingdom.” Oh, doctrine by innuendo and inference, I see.

    Personally, like Paul, I am confident that I will be with the Lord when I escape my body. Paul teaches two categories of believers here, PRESENT (alive) or ABSENT (death or rapture) ALL Believers appear and the labour of all believers is accepted to some degree. ALL believers “attain” the resurrection to some degree. All believers will be ashamed at something; ALL believers will suffer some loss; ALL believers will receive some wood, hay, and stubble as well as some gold, silver, and precious stones in varying amounts. This is not a Communist or a Socialist JSOC. Still, few will receive FULL reward.

    The acceptance of all believers, whether present (alive) or whether absent (dead or raptured) is regarding the acceptance of our labour and its subsequent rewards, whether good--gold, silver, precious stones or bad--wood, hay, stubble. Notice that EVERY ONE may receive good AND bad for the things done in the body, i.e., works, NOT SINS. The good refers to the rewardable good works of gold, silver, and precious stones (works or labour done for Christ) and the bad refer to the rewardable bad works of wood hay and stubble (works or labour not done for Christ). All the works rewards are tried by fire after everyone receives their share of each unless one gets full reward.

    The overcomers cult and the Kingdom Exclusionists would have you believe that the good refers to the rewardable things and the bad refers to your sins. One group of rewards comes through the fire; the other group of rewards does not and are burned (not believers but works). Joey Faust in his narrow view of acceptance here is that of being rejected and not “attaining the resurrection” and the “kingdom.”

    Joey Faust thinks that the terror of the Lord kills believers at the JSOC (even though he cannot find it in JSOC passages) rather than receiving something as a reward. He believes that the lake of fire is meant without finding one passage (without Faust interpolation) that puts believers in the lake of fire or excludes them from the kingdom. Notice who it is that is persuaded here--MEN not believers. There is no terror for believers anywhere.

    Only the lost will NOT be present with the Lord at JSOC; they will wait in the dust of the earth (their bodies). Their departed souls are in hell or will be there until the Great White Throne Judgment, when they will be united with their bodies and stand before God. By then, all believers will have already reigned with Christ on earth. Joey Faust believes that a carnal believer’s body is raised but not resurrected at the JSOC. We believe that all believers stand at the JSOC in their new, glorified, resurrected bodies. The issue here is RECEIVING and REWARDING at the JSOC for whatever works or labour for Christ that were done in the old body. The new body cannot and does not get punished as the Faustites think.
     
  17. Herb Evans

    Herb Evans
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    Temporary Salvaion and Kingdom Exclusion - Part 4

    Faith Secures the Kingdom and Salvation of the Saints​

    Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. -- Pet.1:8, 9

    Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: -- Heb 12:28

    Our souls are not BEING SAVED as some modern, corrupt bibles and preachers teach. We have received the end of our faith the moment that we trusted Christ as Lord and Saviour. That is the reason we can rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory even as Peter said. Not only are our souls already saved, but we have already received a kingdom before we ever had to grew in grace or to serve God acceptably. The problem with the New Kingdom Exclusionist and Faustology teaching is that it confuses the word "inherit" with "merit." I don't merit eternal life nor do I merit the Kingdom, but they were mine the instant that I was saved. Our bodies are not even BEING saved, for we shall receive a new body upon our resurrection, and we now await the redemption of our bodies.

    The inheritance is not of the Law or of Works​

    For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. -- Gal 3:18

    For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect . . . -- Rom 4:14

    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will . . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. --Eph. 1:11, 13, 14
    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: -- Col. 1:12

    Inheritance is a matter of son-ship not the law or works; it is a matter of the connection to promise. It is a done deal. We have already OBTAINED an inheritance. Saved people are predestined to heaven and to the kingdom, if they are truly born again. They have received an EARNEST or PLEDGE to their inheritance by being SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise. The Lord, Himself, has MADE all Christians fit for the Kingdom as well as heaven. How can one be meet to go to heaven and to not enter the kingdom?
    The Promise

    And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. -- Heb 9:15

    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. -- Rev. 21:7

    Even the Old Testament saints, by means of Christ's death for transgression redemption under the FIRST Testament secures the capability of receiving the promise of eternal inheritance for them whom are called now. Of course, inheriting all things is condition on OVERCOMING. Overcoming by the BLOOD of the Lamb. Faustites need to go and learn what that meaneth.

    Who Are the Heirs but Saved saints?​

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. -- Rom. 4; 17

    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. -- Gal. 3:29

    That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. -- Titus 3; 7

    Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? – James 2:5

    If a saint is a born again child of God, the saint is an heir. If the saint suffers with Christ, the saint is a joint heir. The only requirements for joint heirship are faith, love, and suffering, and we, who are saved by faith, love Him because He first loved us. Works are not required for salvation or HEIRSHIP as Joey Faust teaches! If a saint belongs to Christ, the saint is an heir according to promise. If a saint is justified by grace, the saint is made an heir according to the hope of eternal life.

    -- By Herb Evans
     
  18. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    I have seen some bonehead bible exposition in my day and even been guilty of it myself, but this fellow Evans illustrates the epitome of bnehead theology.

    Methinks he ( and many like him) are the reason Dispy's are frowned upon so much lately. He accuses ME proponenets of eisigeisis while doing the same things himself.

    I would give ten cents for it.
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Of course you would not give ten cents for it av, he exposes the very false doctrine to which you adhere.
     
  20. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    On the contrary my friend sfic;
    As I said,he and others like him are the reason dispy's are frowned upon and even ridiculed. He couldn't exposit Jonh 3:16 if it slapped him in the face.
    Much of the Dispensational theology these days is Smorgasboard theology. Pick and choose and pass on what you don't like, don't understand or doesn't fit your parameters. As I said, "Bonehead theology".

    It is evident they don't know what they are talking about since they brag about how knowledgeable they are; yet they themselves REDEFINE the very passages they pretend to use to refute ME. And they have the transparency to lump Arminianism in with ME. Not very knowlegeable at all.

    Like preterists, amillenialists, postmillenialists,etal...they choose which passages are literal and which are spiritual based on the filter of their narrow box theology they put God's word into.


    Tsk Tsk Tsk.....
     

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