Temporary Salvationist 1-8

It is the ME theology that is , as you say, 'Bonehead Theology'. Christ's body is not divided, nor will it ever be. Satan has been trying since his being cast out of heaven to divide the body of Christ, to no avail. Why try to continue his work?

 

Brother Herb, I promised I would come back to discuss these scriptures with you. I will just break them up into smaller groups to make it more manageable.

This is the 'they aren't really saved' defense. I'm sure that this will be your argument anywhere the bible appears to address believers with strong warnings. And this is really the crux of the matter. Can a person be saved and not be obedient? I think you would at least pretend to believe in salvation by grace through faith. But you teach a works based salvation when you deny that these passages are talking about saved people. What must I do to be saved?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to you, Herb, I don't get saved by believing on what Jesus has done, I get saved by doing the will of the Father. Bill Jackson has an excelent web site that you should look at. It is www.dodone.org and he explains the difference between do and done. If you could see the difference between the kingdom and eternal salvation, you wouldn't have to deny the grace of God.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Unless your not doing the will of the father, right Herb? You somehow tie 'knowing' (as in 'depart from me, I never knew you' or 'verily I say unto you, I know you not') with eternal salvation. Where does the bible say that a person has to 'know' Jesus to be saved?

Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The truth, Herb, is that the difference between you and a 'lose-your-salvationist' Armenian is academic. You both believe that if a person is not keeping God's commandments, that person is not going to be saved in eternity. You only differ on whether they ever were saved to begin with.

All men are servants? That is your answer to the unprofitable servant? OK, then what about Luke 19? Who were the enemies in verse 27, the citizens from verse 14?

Luke 19
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

What is the difference between these people, and the wicked one-pound servant? The servant was saved.

Why do you hate free grace so much, brother? Are you afraid that some filthy sinner might end up sitting next to you for all eternity? For some reason, I can't help but think of Luke 18:11.

 

I would think this would be a problem passage for any works-salvationist also, if indeed it is a problem for lose-your-salvationists. But for ME proponents, it is simply a statement of encouragement. It certainly doesnt state that these things are requirements for obtaining eternal life in the world to come.

It's a saved person.

But Herb, we just said that falling away didn't have to mean losing our eternal salvation. Now if we rightly divide the term salvation, and realize that Paul is speaking of salvation at the judgment seat of Christ, then things that accompany salvation makes perfect sense.

Yes, but stating something doesn't make it so. You need to explain who the enemies are in Luke 19. If all men are servants, who are the enemies? The truth is that there are stripes for believers who do not do their Lord's will.

Now you are talking out of the other side of your mouth. You just spent a couple hundred words trying to prove that saved people keep the Lord's commandments, do the will of the Father, and that all men are servants, but unprofitable servants aren't saved. Now you are saying that a man can be saved and yet not continue in Jesus' word as a disciple? Make up your mind.

 

I don't understand you, Herb. On the one hand, you seem to be advocating some type of Lordship salvation, while on the other you are trying to preserve the free grace salvation to any who would believe. You can't have it both ways. Either believers are saved by believing or they are saved by doing. If they are saved by doing, how much doing do they have to do? How much good works do I have to have to know that I am not merely a false professor? And if they are saved by believing, how can a believer not continue in discipleship, not do their Lord's will, and NOT GET STRIPES?

 

Mind if I join in - this subject of eternal security is a "dear to my heart". I'd like to make a few general statements and then run back into my cage.

1. This issue of eternal security is really an issue of justification. When I "chat" with one who believes he can "loose it" I'm really not debating over eternal security but trying to get the opposing side to see justfication. If one understands scriptual justification then eternal security will not be an issue.

2. And understanding of justification along with rightly dividing the truth clears up this "loose it" doctrine.

3. A person that really believes he can "fall away" or "loose it" has an incomplete understanding or even a complete misunderstanding of justification.

4. Finally - I'm beginng to believe that one who vehemently defends and clings to the "loose it" theoglogy could most likely still be unregenerate. Why? because a person who truely belives he can loose it or fall away is not trusting Christ alone but his doing something to keep itor not doing something to loose it.

God bless

 

I agree, they cannot be TAKEN AWAY unless they are IN THE VINE. Now tell me what it means to be TAKEN AWAY, and can I be TAKEN AWAY and still be ABIDING IN THE VINE?

Luke 12:47
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 

If these disobedient believers are saved, then you have no reason to conclude that any 'unprofitable' or 'wicked' servant is unsaved. What criteria do you use to decide who is saved and who is not? Is it just whenever you start to feel the heat that you cut them off? Since the passage makes no mention of what happens next to Ananias and Sapphira, we are to assume they flew up to heaven and Jesus winked at them and said 'well done good and faithful servant'. But if there had been the slightest hint of fire in the text, Herb would promptly denounce Ananias and Sapphira as false professing wannabe's.

 

Evidently, Ananias & Sapphira weren't really saved or they wouldn'ta have tried to deceive God.

Dr. Evans takes me to task elsewhere for insisting Hebrews 6:4-6 are verses with a literal meaning. We have a discussion elsewhere on this subject, so I won't harp on ot here. But let's think...If we have come in belief, repentance, & submission to Christ, do we now have license to just forget about Him afterwards?? Not hardly.

And who advocates having to WORK FOR ONE'S SALVATION after the Rapture? Dr. Peter Ruckman!

Works w/o faith are useless to the worker. Likewise, faith w/o works is dead. But that does NOT mean we hafta work for our salvation, as the Old Order Amish believe. It means the man or woman of God who is sincere in faith will wanna do good works. For some, it will mean extraordinary service to the poor, preaching moving sermons eight days a week, or just living a Christian life, setting an example for his/her neighbors.

Whether he/she does great works or small ones, all who know this person will know he/she is a CHRISTIAN. Works and faith go hand-in-hand. But like it or not, Hebrews 6:4-6 remains as a warning.

 

Once more with feeling:

 

The crux oft the matter concerning ME is simply the right division of what salvation means in Scripture. Too many self professed Bible scholars in this Laodicean age think salvation ALWAYS means the same thing. However; if one were to contextually consider the passages where the word is used by Paul, Jesus, Peter, John etc...they would have NO CHOICE but to concede that ME is right and has NOTHING to do with Arminianism.

 

I'm confused here Jim - what do you believe here?

Thanks

GOd bless

 

Good Job and a sense of humor to boot.:godisgood:

 

AV I'm not Jim, but let me take a crack at expounding on what he was saying. In today's Christendom when someone mentions the words gospel or salvation people automatically assume they are talking about what it takes for someone to go to heaven for all of eternity. And they think that is the only meaning of those two words.

However, Scripture is not limited to those meanings for those two words. What one has to do is read those words in their contexts to find the meanings instead of supplying the meanings and then going to Scripture.

Gospel simply means good news as I am sure you are well aware. And there is good news to the spiritually dead (unsaved) and then there is good news to the spiritual alive (saved).

There is a salvation to the spiritually dead (eternal salvation) and then there is a salvation to the spiritually alive (kingdom salvation). Then there is also a salvation for those that get back into the boat and a couple of other uses for salvation in Scripture.

Hope that helps.

 

I know exactly what you are saying here, brother. I have to believe that the majority of these guys probably are saved, but have had their assurance stripped away by well-meaning false teachers who are trying to protect the blood of Jesus from having to touch filthy sinners.

 

I would say that Simon was a believer because the bible tells me that he believed, whether he repented or not.

But once again, if you rightly divide eternal life, and understand that Paul is speaking of the reward of eternal life during the kingdom age, then I can have eternal life on the last day, and still seek eternal life during the kingdom.

Romans 2:6-11
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Did you skip 13 on purpose? Anyway, if dying in verse 14 is refering merely to physical death in this life, then what is it contrasted with in the word 'live'. If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (is this physical death), but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live(so, does this mean you will NOT experience physical death?) Maybe you have struck upon another conditional rapture verse, brother! Or it is referring to something other than physical death, which you rightly point out is appointed to all men, then the judgment.

Why do you not interpret these warnings in light of other warnings, such as Hebrews 10:29, where we are told that those who count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing are worthy of a much sorer punishment than physical death? Or Matthew 10:28, where we are told not to fear physical death at the hands of men, but rather to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell?

 

All you have to do is ask Herb how good you have to be to prove you are saved and then you will know how good you have to be to enter the kingdom. Herb doubts everyone is saved but himself. Although to his credit, he does think Ananias is probably a believer.