Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

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    When we talk to our Catholic friends about the 2nd commandment and not having images to use for praying, or in worship - even though the images merely "represent" those beings in heaven to which they pray -- the "answer" could come back something like we find among certain Evangelicals.

    "Well the Commandments are impossible to keep - at best you can keep this or that one in spirit - but not according to what the letter of it actually says".

    Jesus did not accept that sort of answer in Mark 7 when it comes to the Ten Commandments (He calls them the "Word of God") in Mark 7:13.

    Jesus used the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and mother" to illustrated the point of not allowing religious leaders to come up with goofy ideas for running over the Ten Commandments.

    Paul says "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19

    Jesus said 'IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - even before the cross.

    John said that the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

    The Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith both argue for keeping the Commandments (the TEN Commandments) rather than breaking them.

    So also do C.H. Spurgeon, R.C Sproul and D.L. Moody support the idea of KEEPING the Ten Commandments rather than breaking them.

    James quotes from the TEN Commandments in James 2 and calls them the "Law of Liberty" - again urging that the saints keep them rather than tossing them under a bus.

    So then what about unpopular commandments? Like commandment number 2 mentioned above - or Commandment 4 that has the "Impossible thread" dedicated to it.?

    Does this idea of honoring the Moral Law of God - fall apart when it gets to unpopular parts of His Law?

    Or as some have suggested - do you "honor" the unpopular commands by ignoring them?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Paul makes some interesting comments about "God's Commandments" not only in 1Cor 7:19 - but also

    In 1Cor 6 we have this
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Since some may not know of any evangelicals that would take the Catholic approach to the 2nd commandment - ...

    Replace 4th commandment below - with 2nd commandment and you can get an idea.

     
  4. saturneptune

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    What about the commandment that talks about bearing false witness? As in Bible verses being misinterpreted to align with Ellen White? What about the fact that James says that if you have broken one commandment you have broken in ten of them?

    How about using the fourth commandment out of context to make Ellen White smile as she looks down from heaven? LOL. A thread that asks how others handle the ten commandments? Have you heard about the plank and the speck?

    Sounds like you are in a mess to me? And of course, since you never looked at a woman in lust you have never broken the seventh commandment. Congrats.
     
  5. DHK

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    How long will you misquote this verse, even taking it right out of its context, both immediate and contextual.
    First, here is the whole verse which you did no (and habitually do not) quote.

    1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    The context in the chapter is marriage and matters pertaining to marriage.
    The immediate context, using circumcision as an example, is to remain in whatever state you are: if unmarried remain unmarried, if circumcised remain uncircumcised, if a widow remain a widow.
    This verse was an example to remain in the state that God had presently put you due to the stressful conditions of that present time. Context is essential.

    Even if you ignore the wider context which I just explained, and consider only the contextual context of the verse itself, ask yourself these questions:
    1. Are you circumcised?
    2. If so, what was the reason; why were you circumcised?
    a. Was to obey Levitical Law?
    b. Was it for a health reason?
    c. Was it because of tradition?
    d. Was it because you are a Jew?

    The context is shown in the following verse:
    1 Corinthians 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
    --abide in the same calling wherein you were called.

    The commandments of God that are being referred to are nothing more than the two great commands that Jesus referred to:
    Love the Lord your God...
    Love your neighbor as your self.
    IOW, in the context of marriage, they are commands of love.

    But context doesn't matter to you.
     
  6. DHK

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    The Sabbath is impossible to keep. You have proved that to us already by refusing (being unable) to answer simple questions posed to you.
    You are still unable to answer them.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    1. The NT AFFIRMS the "Commandments of God" rather than rejecting them as you claim to do. I cannot take your own preference view - over the Bible.

    2. Your own Baptist Confession Faith and your own D.L. Moody affirm the TEN Commandments instead of taking the path you are suggesting. They note the distinction between Civil and Ceremonial laws ended - vs the Moral Law of God - the TEN Commandments binding still today on all mankind.

    I am not a Baptist - if your own Baptist sources find your view hard to swallow - how much more a NON Baptist.

    Just stating the Obvious.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Christ said that in Matt 22 at the time that the TEN Commandments were in full force EVEN by your OWN POV - and when He said it - even the Jews agreed that ALL the LAW is founded on the immovable LAWS of Love - NOT 'destroyed by the law of love before the cross when Christ is speaking in Matt 22' as you appear to have wildly imagined.

    Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments in assigned that title "in scripture"

    [FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Word of GodMark 7:13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“Commandment of GodMark 7:6-13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    What is worse for your speculation - is that John contrasts "LOVE" to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God". Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

    [/FONT] 1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
    1 John 5:1-3


    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
     
    #8 BobRyan, Nov 27, 2013
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  9. BobRyan

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    So our Catholic friends may say of the 2nd commandment.

    Nothing new for those who object to honoring God's TEN Commandments.

    You asked what the Bible says about what we are supposed to do to honor the 4th commandment.

    I pointed you to Ex 20:8-11 (a day of no work) and Lev 23:1-3 and Is 66:23 come together for worship.

    You claimed all these texts telling us what are supposed to be doing - are "meaningless".

    Need I quote you on that --- again??

    But even some of your own Sunday keeping groups do not go to your extreme in warring against the TEN Commandments.

    Regarding the texts I posted for affirming God's Ten Commandments --

    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Sadly the context fully sinks your any-ol-excuse-will-do solution.

    The immediate context is Jew-vs-Gentile not "getting married to someone who is circumcised" as you seem to want to bend the entire chapter to being "All about marriage and ignore all other details".

    1Cor 7 vs 18-20 is all about the contrast between the ceremonial law and the Moral Law of God - the Commandments of God - the TEN Commandments included.

    1Cor 7
    18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

    No wonder your own sunday-keeping Baptist sources ADMIT to this distinction between the Moral law of God continued -and the ceremonial laws now ended. If even your own fellow Baptists do not follow the any-old-excuse-will-do solution you are proposing - how much less should a non-Baptist??


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. DHK

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    Yes, you never gave any legitimate answer.
    Did you understand the question(s)
    Comprendez vous Anglais?
    You are not answering the question; simply beating around the bush.
    HOW do you keep the Sabbath? How? How do YOU specifically keep the Sabbath?
    I don't believe you do, and therefore you will not/cannot answer me.
     
  12. DHK

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    You don't know what you are talking about.
    And you have no idea what verse 19 means though you keep using it out of context.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    You asked what the Bible says about what we are supposed to do to honor the 4th commandment.

    I pointed you to "the Bible details" in Ex 20:8-11 (a day of no work) and also to the "Bible details" in Lev 23:1-3 and Is 66:23 come together for worship, and the "Bible details" in Isaiah 58:13 (a day Holy to the Lord) and in Isaiah 56 for all foreigners, aliens, strangers that choose to Honor God's TEN Commandments.

    You claimed all these texts telling us what are supposed to be doing - are "meaningless".

    Need I quote you on that --- again??

    But even some of your own Sunday keeping groups do not go to your extreme in warring against the TEN Commandments.

    Regarding the texts I posted for affirming God's Ten Commandments --

    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

     
  14. BobRyan

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    Sadly the context fully sinks your any-ol-excuse-will-do solution.

    The immediate context is Jew-vs-Gentile not "getting married to someone who is circumcised" as you seem to want to bend the entire chapter to being "All about marriage and ignore all other details".

    1Cor 7 vs 18-20 is all about the contrast between the ceremonial law and the Moral Law of God - the Commandments of God - the TEN Commandments included.

    1Cor 7
    18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.
    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
    20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

    No wonder your own sunday-keeping Baptist sources ADMIT to this distinction between the Moral law of God continued -and the ceremonial laws now ended. If even your own fellow Baptists do not follow the any-old-excuse-will-do solution you are proposing - how much less should a non-Baptist??

    So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.

    [FONT=&quot]Section 19
    . The Law of God
    [/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
    • [FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man[/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]

    A+ on your papal pronouncement.

    Not-so-high though on actual Bible exegesis.

    Even your own Baptist sources admit to the distinction between ceremonial law and moral law - as we see in 1Cor 7:19. If even your own fellow Baptists refute your any-old-excuse-will-do solution, how much more so a non-Baptist such as myself??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Nov 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2013
  15. Yeshua1

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    paul stated that NONE shall be made right in the sight of God by keeping the law, and that its thru and by FAITH is risen Christ that we are saved and justified before God...

    Why do you disagree with paul, yet agree with false prophetess Ellen White on this issue?
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    NONE of those "Baptist" sources agree with your flawed take on this issue, and even if they did, they are NOT the bible!

    We appeal ONLY to the Bible for doctrines, why don't you?
     
  17. BobRyan

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    In the quote I gave "details matter".

    You chose to ignore every detail and go with dark ages style "papal pronouncement" - simply because the "details did not please you".

    Didn't work that well in the dark ages to get rid of Protestantism.

    Think about it.

    In the quote I gave the "detail" is that the Baptist sources DO admit to a distinction between the various kinds of law in the OT.

    Your attempt to sweep all the details under the rug and pulpit-pound papal pronouncement "instead" of responding to a single detail -- is more transparent for the unbiased objective reader than you seem to have at first imagined.

    Your methods have been tried before.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. steaver

    steaver
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    Do you break God's commandments Bob?
     
  19. steaver

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    This is taken from the Messianic Jewish congregation website you gave us for a reference....

    Are you going to continue to argue against even the Messianic Jews about gathering together for worshipping on the Sabbath?
     
  20. BobRyan

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    I have the Westminster Confession of Faith to quote from - good Sunday keeping document - but not actually "Baptist" so I prefer quoting from the "Baptist Confession of Faith" or something of that sort.

    If you have some quote from the "Seventh-day Adventist 28 Fundamental Beliefs" that you would like to hand back to me -- "in kind" -- feel free.

    Try to keep it in the same line of discussion.

    If you have nothing in that regard...well... that is understandable.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
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