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Featured Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the moral law of God - of course.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]


    Yes. - I have stated that all over the place.

    But I have not claimed to be sinless just as you obviously would not claim to be sinless before expecting the 2nd commandment to be taken seriously.


    And of course (complete silence) until we get "another repeat" of the question. (DHK Ducking the point made above - of course. :) )



    Indeed - you have downsized the "TEN Commandments" (a designation actually found IN the Bible) to the "NINE Commandments" (a designation you simply make up).

    Yet James says to break one - is to break them all - and you have mentioned this more than once. Thus you know full well that the war you wage against the 4th commandment is waging war in general against the TEN Commandments.

    This explains how it is that this many pages into this thread - not once have you claimed to honor, agree with, support the TEN Commandments of God - and it is only now that you begin to affirm any of it - though certainly you must affirm at least some of it.

    Indeed - you consider obedience to the WORD of God in the 4th commandment to be "amoral".

    This thread is not about "nobody ever sins so lets agree to affirm and obey the Ten Commandments".

    No Catholic could respond that until you are sinless - they do not need to keep the 2nd commandment.

    That type of rabbit trail has been tried over and over again - and each time I point out that you would not take that from a Catholic trying to duck the 2nd commandment "dead silence" is the response.

    We are not talking about being sinless when it comes to the 10th commandment - or else the 10th commandment is void - you only try that stunt with the 4th commandment.

    That is "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #101 BobRyan, Dec 4, 2013
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I never argue against the text, nor does anyone here. The "debates" are over "APPLICATION" to the believer. So your warn out line of everyone but you is arguing against the text is bogus and a deflection so you can avoid tough questions which debunk your pov.

    Here is a perfect example. No one has any argument with 1John5:1-4. So let's apply your application to your own life and see how you answer.....

    You said that you DO break God's commandments (Sin) , should I then declare you do not LOVE God AND Love the people of God??
     
    #102 steaver, Dec 4, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I posted these texts -

    The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

    ============================

    you don't address the content of the texts - except to complain about what they say as if I authored the texts.

    Your argument is "with the text".


    Hint: this is you ... quoting you -- as if I authored the text.

    Here is "The text" you don't quote - but merely complain about.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #103 BobRyan, Dec 4, 2013
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "I merely quote...."
    Yes, and that is not debate, not answering the question, but avoiding it.
    You are being childish in posting and re-posting the same thing again and again. It is to the point where no one really reads it anymore.

    Do you keep the commandments of God? Don't quote Scripture. Tell me in your own words. You have a brain; use it. Try a sentence that starts in the first person singular, or better still, with the word yes or no.

    If yes, how is it you can keep the commandments of God when the Bible teaches you cannot. Are you as perfect as Christ? Was there a purpose to 1John 1:9?
     
    #104 DHK, Dec 4, 2013
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Do you keep the Ten Commandments?
    Can you answer in your own words, without quoting a Bible text?
    I honor all the word of God, but don't elevate one part above another.
    I have already shown you in another post how you don't keep the moral law of God.
    You bear false witness. You lie.
    "Let God be true but every man a liar." That includes you.
    When have I ever said that or even inferred it?
    I take it very seriously, and in fact, think that you break it, as you break every one of the Ten Commandments on a regular basis. Perhaps you should do a thorough study on the subject.
    I never said I don't break the Ten Commandments. I freely admit that I do. The difference between you and I, is that I can admit that I am a sinner--a sinner saved by the grace of God. If you can't admit that you are a sinner then perhaps you aren't saved, for Christ came into the world to save sinners.
    You are off topic with this red herring of yours.
    You don't keep the Sabbath, nor do you keep any of the other commandments. So don't be a hypocrite.
    More hypocritical self-righteousness.
    The thread is:
    Thread: Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?


    The question then, is: do you keep them or break them?
    You haven't given an honest answer to thread itself Bob. You sit there in a self-righteous attitude without admitting that either you don't keep them, or how you do keep them.
    You can't answer for yourself so you change the topic??
    The thread isn't about Catholics; it is about YOU and whether or not YOU can keep the Ten Commandments or not. But you won't answer that will you?
    What is instructive is your diversionary tactics to other topics such as Catholicism, the Sabbath, etc., and your avoidance of answering the OP, the title of the Thread itself. It is as if you have a deep-seated fear of giving a personal answer to the question posed in the title of this thread.
     
    #105 DHK, Dec 4, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Do you admit that you do not honor the 4th commandment? Do not keep the 4th commandment on purpose?

    Not because you choose to obey it - but sometimes fail - but that you consider it "amoral" and give it no thought at all?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #106 BobRyan, Dec 4, 2013
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "Amoral" means that it is not immoral to keep it or not immoral to not keep it. The moral law is written on the heart of all men. In every nation man knows it is wrong to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc. That law is written on their hearts. Their conscience bears witness to that fact.

    But their conscience does not bear witness that it is sin to worship or not worship on any given day. Go to a foreign nation where the gospel has not been preached and ask them if it is wrong to murder. Of course it is!
    Then ask them if it is wrong to worship God on Saturday. They won't have a clue what you are talking about because there is no morality attached to this particular law which was given to the Jew. On this point you cannot prove me wrong, and you know it.

    The real question is: Do you keep all the law?
    We know the answer to that question. You just won't admit it.
     
    #107 DHK, Dec 4, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I do keep the law - but that does not mean that I have never sinned.

    The issue here is the one you are ducking now for some inexplicable reason.

    =========================== here is the question again

    Do you admit that you do not honor the 4th commandment? Do not keep the 4th commandment on purpose?

    Not because you choose to obey it - but sometimes fail - but that you consider it "amoral" and give it no thought at all?

    ( I actually thought you would jump on board to answer this one)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #108 BobRyan, Dec 4, 2013
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "have" never sinned?? Are you saying that today you have matured in Christ to the point you don't sin anymore??
     
    #109 steaver, Dec 5, 2013
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Let's summarize what happened to the rich young ruler:

    Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
    --He seemed sincere enough. He wanted to know "what to do" to inherit eternal life.

    Jesus answer:
    Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
    --Keep the Law! This is your answer.

    The rich young ruler responded just the way you did:
    Mark 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

    Thus Jesus gives him a command that he knows he will not keep. It demonstrates his heart attitude toward the law.
    Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    --Jesus does expect this of his disciples. But it is not a requirement for salvation. Therefore what is Jesus telling him this for?

    Mark 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
    --He coveted his riches more than he desired Christ.
    He did break the law; the law that says: "Thou shalt not covet."
    He broke another commandment:

    Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    He committed the sin of idolatry. Covetousness is idolatry.

    Read the OT stories that Paul recounts for the Corinthians in 1Cor.10:1ff. The Israelites "coveted" after the things in Egypt (other foods) that they could not have. That was idolatry.
    Idolatry doesn't always come in the form of bowing down to an image. It has many forms.

    However, Jesus aptly pointed out how this rich young ruler broke at least two of the commandments when he said that he "observed them all from his youth."
    I believe he could do the same with you.
    In fact I believe he could show that you have broken them all, and no doubt do on a fairly regular basis. You either don't understand what they mean, or won't admit that you do.
     
    #110 DHK, Dec 5, 2013
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It means that your "do the saints ever sin - if so then we can ignore the Ten Commandments" idea is totally without merit.

    ====================================

    The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    "Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12


    As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

    A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God.

    But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #111 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2013
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Notice that Jesus did NOT say "well the commandments of God are wayyy tooo burdensome - so don't worry about coveting that would be asking too much for the Ten Commandments are not reasonable for the People of God and the saints are NOT known for "KEEPING the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" no matter what the Word of God says to the contrary".

    In the same way no Baptist on this board would not offer such fluff-cotton-candy excuses for our Catholic friend who may be interested in not really keeping the 2nd commandment.

    No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #112 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Nice try to deflect, but no one is fooled. This conversation is not about ignoring commandments, but how to rightly divide the word of truth and apply them as God intends.

    You declare breaking a commandment forfeits salvation. This is what this debate is about, not ignoring commandments.

    You tell us you break the commandments and you keep the commandments at the same time. You have not explained how you accomplish this and stay saved.
     
    #113 steaver, Dec 5, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Read the actual posts.

    ======================

    Notice that Jesus did NOT say "well the commandments of God are wayyy tooo burdensome - so don't worry about coveting that would be asking too much for the Ten Commandments are not reasonable for the People of God and the saints are NOT known for "KEEPING the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" no matter what the Word of God says to the contrary".

    In the same way no Baptist on this board would offer such fluff-cotton-candy excuses for our Catholic friend who may be interested in not really keeping the 2nd commandment.

    No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

    ========================================

    The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    -- DHK     picks out a commandment of God and claims it to be "wayy" to burdensome to keep. Downright impossible according to DHK


    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    DHK and Steaver argue that they CANNOT keep the LAW of God no matter what Romans 8 says to the contrary.



    "Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

    -- DHK responds with the Bible contradicting idea that some of the Commandments are "AMORAL".
    -- DHK responds that they cannot be kept no matter if the Bible says the Saints are known for keeping them or not.

    As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

    A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

    But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.
     
    #114 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The war against the TEN Commandments argument is "stuck" at the point I noted above and it only appears to give itself life - by ignoring the glaringly obvious points raised - that they cannot answer.

    How easy is that to see? Very easy.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #115 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The issue is salvation. You declare keeping the commandments save. Yet you admit you break them. So how do you plan on yourself getting saved? By grace after ye do all that you can do?
     
    #116 steaver, Dec 5, 2013
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "By the law is the knowledge of sin." That is the purpose of the law; not salvation. The law cannot save. Jesus gave him the law to show him his hypocrisy and his sinfulness.
    The law's purpose was accomplished in the rich young ruler, and therefore he rejected Christ. He was covetous and idolized his riches.
    The law does the same thing with you. It shows you your sinfulness. Every time you post your pride and self-righteousness comes out (like the rich young ruler), and says "I keep the law," which we all know you don't.
    In fact the opposite is true. You break the law--all of it.
    This is complete red herring. No one offered any excuse to anyone.
    This is not about Catholics. Why this red herring all the time?
    This is about you and the law?
    But you deflect the attention away from yourself in order not to answer personal questions, and enter a debate that may prove embarrassing for you. That is the real issue here.
    You slander D.L. Moody and shouldn't quote him at all. D.L. Moody never kept the Sabbath and in your heart you know that.
    1. He told the people to worship on Sunday, just like most of us do. That is not the Sabbath.
    2. He explicitly said: "I do my work on Saturday," thereby nullifying any idea at all that he kept the Sabbath.
    3. He gave a caveat at the end of his sermon distancing himself from all SDA doctrine.
    Your slander of this man is atrocious.

    What does the Scripture really say about the Law:
    Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

    Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
    --But in the verse above, Rom.4:15, the law works wrath. That is the opposite of grace. Grace and wrath do not go together.
    In salvation God pours out his grace upon the sinner.
    To the unbeliever he pours out his wrath. To those under the law, they have put themselves under the wrath of God, for salvation is not of works, it is by grace through faith--not by works, by works of the law, by the law, etc. It is by faith and faith alone.
     
    #117 DHK, Dec 5, 2013
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    DHK -

    Do you admit that you do not honor the 4th commandment? Do not keep the 4th commandment on purpose?

    Not because you choose to obey it - but sometimes fail - but that you consider it "amoral" and give it no thought at all?

    ( I actually thought you would jump on board to answer this one)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #118 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No. I do not keep the Sabbath because the Bible teaches that it is a commandment given specifically to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

    What you have done is taken an explanation of mine concerning Romans 2:14,15 and jumped at the opportunity to use it as a reason or the reason for not keeping the Sabbath. This also is misrepresentation of the facts, or deceit. The Lord would call it "breaking the law." Wouldn't you?
    Do you have to get born again and again and again?
     
    #119 DHK, Dec 5, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.     1 John 5:1-3

    -- DHK     picks out a commandment of God and claims it to be "wayy" to burdensome to keep. Downright impossible according to DHK


    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    DHK and Steaver argue that they CANNOT keep the LAW of God no matter what Romans 8 says to the contrary.



    "Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

    -- DHK responds with the Bible contradicting idea that some of the Commandments are "AMORAL".
    -- DHK responds that they cannot be kept no matter if the Bible says the Saints are known for keeping them or not.

    As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

    A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

    But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

    No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

    Sadly we both know your false accusation above is not true at all - it has no merrit.

    We can all see that I have included D.L. Moody as a "Sunday keeping source" and then I pointed out dozens of times that you keep "pretending" not to see this "detail" in my post.

    How sad for your false accusation.

    Another "detail" that debunks your sad accusation - is that I repeatedly stated in my reference to Moody and others that I strongly object to their idea of applying the Sabbath to sunday in the NT claiming that it was changed at the cross. We all know that by know.

    Your sad accusation has no validity in real life posts - so you just "repeat it".

    We can all see that I have included D.L. Moody as a "Sunday keeping source" and then I pointed out dozens of times that you keep "pretending" not to see this "detail" in my post.

    How sad that you think such failed methods work for your fear of D.L. Moody quotes.

    We both know that the more "details" that are listed here - the more your need to misdirect on the subject of his sermon is evident.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #120 BobRyan, Dec 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2013
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