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Ten Reasons Why I Will Not...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Kidz-4-HIM, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    I was talking to a friend on the weekend who said their son went to the movie with an unsaved young man. After they came out, the young man stated he could not in any way see why anyone would claim the movie was religious. It was simply the beating torture of a man who eventually got killed. No different than a lot of other movies. And he was not in the least interested in any religious conversation about it. He saw nothing in it whatsoever that conveyed who or what Christ was about. He was totally turned off by the suggestion.

    Any conversation I have with people regarding the movie and my opinion about it, has resulted in people not going to it and them thanking me for providing the information about it, and saving them the money.
     
  2. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Yes He can, even the foolishness of preaching. Thank you for your post, it is above all else the single most important element in this discussion.
    Thank God for your uncle's salvation. [​IMG]
    Murph
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen! [​IMG]
     
  3. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    IMO the movie has atleast two scenes that absolutely are incorrect according to scripture. These are the soldiers taking down the Saviour from the cross (the gospel says Joseph did it) and the fact that when the stone is removed the Lord is still in the tomb which is in direct contradiction to Matthew's gospel. Now I am not talking about scenes that seem to be teaching a false doctrine, I am only interested in direct contradiction of scripture such as the two I mentioned above. Anybody else see any others?
    Murph
     
  4. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Okay, Murph, someone mentioned in some thread about the demons and Judas, that Judas killed himself over Godly repentence or something like that. I believe the film did show Judas in Godly repentence or at least acknowledging he realized what he had done when he threw the money back at them BEFORE the demon scene. The demon scene was not anti-Biblical, IMO, because God or Godly repentence or sorrow does not cause people to kill themselves. Demons can drive people to do that.

    I also didn't particularly care for the scene where "Jesus" said to his mother, "See, Mother, I make all things new." I felt it was out of place, but that is just opinion, not something anti-Biblical. Just my thoughts, [​IMG]

    [ April 14, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  5. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You're right on track with that statement. It's perfectly okay for us to say "I like this/that" or "I didn't like this/that". Where we go wrong is confusing of like/dislike with right/wrong. Upon seeing the movie a second time now, I'm in agreement with Murph in the two scenes he touched upon (although, it should be noted that the tomb scene does not contradict the remaining three gospels, some of which have differing account details concerning the empty tomb). However, the overall film is, imo, great, and more on track that most films about the subject matter.

    What irks me is when I see something in the movie I didn't like, and a naysayer insists that I take a "this fils is evil" stance. C'mon, folks, it's a movie. I know the diff between a flick and the Gospel. It almost makes me fear being critical, for fear of the anti-Passion crowd trying to convert me to their side.

    As you said, those are just my thoughts,

    [ April 14, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  6. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    [ April 14, 2004, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  7. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Anpother scene is the scourign scene ...the whole presentation was false...and according to the Scriptures only the soldiers were present. The Mary's were not.

    And Mary did not hold the Body of Jesus...proven scripturally.
     
  8. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    I'm still holding my guns about the Catholic image it portrays---it reaks of Catholicism which feed on heresy only to move to minister blasphemy against the name of the Lord Jesus Christ---all of the extra biblical visionaries plagerized from Emmerich and Brigett and others must be rejected as truth by this Southern Baptist preacher!

    Brother David
     
  9. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    First of all let me say that I have edited 3 posts above for the simple reason that they each contained negative comments about the way someone has treated them on the board. While this may be true, today is a new day so let's not start an argument based on what happened in the past. How many times did Jesus instruct Peter to forgive his brother?

    Now let me get to my request and Sharpswords answer. I posted 2 instances in the film that directly contradict scripture in it's portrayal and I asked others to list any they saw. I want to say that Lady Eagle brought a good point about the demon children. I don't like their portrayal but I cannot find scripture to tell me they were not there so I cannot add them to my list. I also feel that Lady eagle has disproven my point that Godly sorrow guided Judas not demonic forces but IMO she is right that while Godly sorrow will lead you to repentance it would not lead you to commit suicide, even for Judas. Now to the 2 points by Shardsword # 1 he says the scorging scene was false. It may have been historicaly inaccurate I don't know but the Bible does not give us enough info to say for sure, also he states that only the soldiers were present but I just reread all 4 gospel accounts and none of them state exactly who was and was not present. #2 He also states that Mary did not hold the body and he says this is proven scrtpturaly. I dissagree and I also would like to see the scripture he is speaking of. While the bible does not show her holding him it also does not show her not holding him. Blackbird also voiced his concern but honestly I am asking for scriptural errors in the film not doctrinal differences, I am not saying his thinking is in error I am simply trying to keep this discussion on strictly what biblical error is shown.
    Murph
     
  10. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Another scene is the one about Christ carrying the cross...Simon carried it and it can be proven by the Scriptures.

    Another concept is that Mary also abandoned Christ according to the Scriptures...therefore, her flitting around and giving Christ strength and 'being there" is false. She stood afar...not close at all, according to the Word of God...
     
  11. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Murph --Sharpsword is a she.
     
  12. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Three gospel writers record that the cross was layed on Simon. Three Gospel writers stated that Simon was compelled to carry the cross as they came out of the hall. No Scripture states the physical cross was ever layed on Jesus. Simon in fact is shown to have followed behind Jesus, carrying the cross. And the Scripture states that the soldiers did in fact lay the cross on Simon to bear it.

    Scripture tells us this. John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

    2 Cor. 13: 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    If you look at the Greek words for bearing His cross, in the the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, versus John....it's a different word.

    From Matthew: 27:27-32?

    Matthew 27: 27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers...31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
    ** 32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross. [KJV]

    *** 32 .... him &lt;touton&gt; they compelled &lt;aggareuo&gt; to &lt;hina&gt; bear &lt;airo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt;.

    From Strong's Concordance: bear &lt;airo&gt;
    142. airw airo, ah'-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).?

    In Mark :
    Mark 15:16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band...20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. 21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross. [KJV]
    **21.... to bear &lt;airo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt;.

    Same as Matthew &gt; bear &gt; airo

    In Luke:?
    Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. [KJV]

    ***26 .... and on &lt;epitithemi&gt; him &lt;autos&gt; they laid &lt;epitithemi&gt; the cross &lt;stauros&gt;, that he might bear &lt;phero&gt; it after &lt;opisthen&gt; Jesus &lt;Iesous&gt;.

    From Strong's Concordance: that he might bear &lt;phero&gt;
    5342. ferw phero, fer'-o a primary verb -- for which other, and apparently not cognate ones are used in certain tenses only; namely,?

    oio oy'-o; and enegko en-eng'-ko?

    to "bear" or carry (in a very wide application, literally and figuratively, as follows):--be, bear, bring (forth), carry, come, + let her drive, be driven, endure, go on, lay, lead, move, reach, rushing, uphold.

    From Strong's Concordance: it after &lt;opisthen&gt;
    3693. opisten opisthen, op'-is-then from opis (regard; from 3700) with enclitic of source; from the rear (as a secure aspect), i.e. at the back (adverb and preposition of place or time):--after, backside, behind.
    ?

    John 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
    17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: [KJV]

    ****17 And he bearing &lt;bastazo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt; went forth &lt;exerchomai&gt;

    From Strong's Concordance: And he bearing &lt;bastazo&gt;

    941. bastazw bastazo, bas-tad'-zo &gt; perhaps remotely derived from the base of 939 (through the idea of removal); to lift, literally or figuratively (endure, declare, sustain, receive, etc.):--bear, carry, take up.?

    939. basiv basis, bas'-ece from baino (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:--foot.

    From Strong's Concordance: went forth &lt;exerchomai&gt;

    1831. exercomai exerchomai, ex-er'-khom-ahee from 1537 and 2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):--come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad

    If we compare the use of 'bastazo' with other verses, the concept can and is applied to the spiritual act of bearing a cross or burden.?In fact it is the word used in a similar verse,

    Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth &lt;bastazo&gt; not &lt;ou&gt; bear &lt;bastazo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt;, and come &lt;erchomai&gt; after me , cannot be my disciple. [KJV]

    The witness of the first three Gospels does not contradict the spiritual application in John, I don't think. Simon was compelled to carry the physical cross for Jesus, from the time He left the Hall.

    We have the testimony of the THREE gospel writers saying Simon carried the cross. We have their testimony in using a different word in agreement of that fact, versus the one word changed in John, which is also the word Jesus used in proclaiming the truth about all believers picking up their cross and following Him. Are we to then all get crucified physically or physically carry a cross? No. The word used in John, was applicable to the spiritual bearing of the cross.

    If you have another interpretation, and a more correct word study of the greek words used, which I presented, please provide it.
     
  13. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    It proves Mary was not hanging under the cross kissing bloody feet, and flitting along the stations of the cross and giving Jesus strength. She stood away from Christ, as did others identified in the Scriptures. And it proves she did not ask Jesus if she could die with Him. In fact we can assume she was part of the Daughters of Jerusalem who followed after Christ and Simon who carried his cross, and who Jesus turned around and spoke to.


    In fact all the Mary closeness scenes in the movie, like the scourging and slopping up the blood,and kissing his bloody feet, Jesus drawing strength from her, Mary allowing Jesus to go through it concept, etc. comes from the demonic writings of Emmerich and Agreda, and Catholic doctrine..

    When Jesus turned Mary over to the apostle, while on the cross...that is the last time she is ever referred to as His mother. From then on in Scripture, she is referred to in relation to her other children.

    Mtt 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
    56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and ***Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. [***meaning his mother]

    Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; [***meaning his mother]
    41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.[also v 47--Mary again no longer referred to as His mother]

    Luke 23:v 27, 28, 48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
    49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things. [and also v 55]

    John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
    26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
    27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    Jesus was abandoned by all---including Mary. According to the Word of God.

    Psalm 31:11 I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me.

    Psalm 38:10 My heart panteth, my strength faileth me: as for the light of mine eyes, it also is gone from me.
    11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

    John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    Luke 23:25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will. 26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

    It is stated in Psalms that all forsook Him. Jesus was abandoned by all---including Mary. According to the Word of God.

    Psalm 31:11 I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me.

    Psalm 38:10 My heart panteth, my strength faileth me: as for the light of mine eyes, it also is gone from me.
    11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

    Luke 23:v 27, 28, 48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
    49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things. [and also v 55] *****The women included his mother.
     
  14. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Scripturally it can be proven that Mary never held the Body, and she watched from afar. And Murph, you held Johnv accountable for appearing to deny these Scriptures, when I proved it Scripturally.

    In the movie, depicting Station Thirteen and the Catholic pieta, Mary holds Jesus in her arms after he is taken down from the cross. That is contrary to Luke 23:47-56, and John 19:38-42. And in the movie, the women get his body instead of Joseph and Nicodemus, as shown in several Scriptures. Matthew 27:57-60, Luke 23:47-56, John 19:38-42

    Was Mary given the Body of our Lord according to the Scriptures?

    Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
    44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
    45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
    46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
    47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

    ***the centurion gave the body to Joseph, and he took it down from the cross, wrapped and placed it in the sepulchre

    Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
    58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
    59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
    60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
    61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

    Luke 23:49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
    50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:
    51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.
    52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
    53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
    54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
    55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

    John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
    39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
    40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.


    The Scriptures do not lie about who got the Body and who handled the Body and who watched.

    Jesus said in Matthew 13:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
    48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
    49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    It was more than appropriate and symbolic for Joseph to get the Body of our Lord ,

    John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus,----because he was family--according to Jesus.
     
  15. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Murph:

    I want to say that Lady Eagle brought a good point about the demon children. I don't like their portrayal but I cannot find scripture to tell me they were not there so I cannot add them to my list. I also feel that Lady eagle has disproven my point that Godly sorrow guided Judas not demonic forces but IMO she is right that while Godly sorrow will lead you to repentance it would not lead you to commit suicide, even for Judas. Now to the 2 points by Shardsword # 1 he says the scorging scene was false. It may have been historicaly inaccurate I don't know but the Bible does not give us enough info to say for sure, also he states that only the soldiers were present but I just reread all 4 gospel accounts and none of them state exactly who was and was not present. #2 He also states that Mary did not hold the body and he says this is proven scrtpturaly. I dissagree and I also would like to see the scripture he is speaking of. While the bible does not show her holding him it also does not show her not holding him. Blackbird also voiced his concern but honestly I am asking for scriptural errors in the film not doctrinal differences, I am not saying his thinking is in error I am simply trying to keep this discussion on strictly what biblical error is shown.

    S&T:

    I think I may have come up with some terminology that will satisfy both sides of this debate and help both sides to clarify their perspective. Anything that occurs in the movie that is not biblical, and is also not from the mystical visions of Emmerich, Agreda, or st Bridgit, we will term as "artistic license". Anything that is not from biblical sources, and can be proven to be from the works of the RCC proclaimed mystics, who contradict each other, we will now term as "demonic lies-ence".
     
  16. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    The scourging was historically done on the back, But more importantly....it says that Jesus gave His back to the smiters....not His front. That information was from Emmerich and company.

    Isaiah 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

    If things not in the Bible can be added to simply because they do not appear to be in the Biblical description...is the Bible now not a closed canon with regards to the movie?
     
  17. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Jesus did not say "It is accomplished" on the cross...that is false doctrine.

    He said "It is finished."

    The Greek meaning is important. In the movie it has "It is accomplished". The Greek word 'epiteleo' [*2005] means to fulfill further, perform, undergo, bring to pass, or do. It is used throughout the New Testament. The word used in the King James Bible for 'finished' is 'teleo' [*5055], which means complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt), make an end, finish.

    By changing that word finished to accomplished, the Roman Catholic church doctrine and beliefs are being conveyed. They believe Christ's work on the cross is insufficient and that there is still more to do to work for your salvation: mass, specific prayers, rosary, sacraments, etc. [*Numbers are from Strong's Concordance]

    In the Garden Jesus prayed and said, John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [KJV]
     
  18. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    SS:

    The scourging was historically done on the back, But more importantly....it says that Jesus gave His back to the smiters....not His front. That information was from Emmerich and company.

    S&T:

    You are correct in your statement. The caning with the thirty strikes, as well as the scourging of the front utilized "demonic lies-ence."
     
  19. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    In the movie, “Peter”, after denying Christ three times knelt before “Mary”, and asks her forgiveness twice. The disiples refer to her as "Mother"

    Matthew 26:69-75 "...74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. [KJV]
    Also see: Mark 14: 66-72

    Luke 22:54-62 v 62. And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

    Did satan address Jesus in the garden and say "Who is your Father?" and "Who are You?", in the Bible? No

    Did the apostles say, "What's wrong with him" and "He seems afraid", in the Bible? No

    The Scriptures record what we need to know about what Jesus said, and how the disciples behaved. Including His prayer for the disciples.

    Is it Scriptural, that the “Jesus” of this movie, when asked to identify himself, said I am He, but no one falls over backwards? 

    John 18:6 As soon then as He had said unto them, I am He, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
     
  20. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Are the names of the thieves Gesmas and Dismas (the believing thief) in the Bible? No

    The names came from the writings of the mystic Anne Emmerich, the stigmatic nun, known to have levitated and who always had an accompanying spirit.


    Are the words spoken by Jesus in the movie to Mary "See mother, I make all things new," in the Gospels?

    No. It is a misrepresentation of what Jesus said to the Apostle John in Revelation 21:5. Revelation was written about 40 years later.


    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


    And it is in Revelation that we are told about adding to those prophetic words or changing them:

    Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
     
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