Text without Greek Authority

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    I am looking at my Interlinear Bible (Hebrew & Greek) printed by Hendrickson publishers and noticed an interesting note in the Preface.

    "This text retains a few readings from the Latin Vulgate, two or three without Greek-manuscript authority (eg Acts 9:5-6), and one from the Complutensian Bible (1 John 5:7). Although we do not accept these as true scripture, we will allow them to remain. . . "

    By the way, the source Greek for this Interlinear is Stephen Austin and Sons Received Text and the Masoretic text for the Hebrew. The Greek TR is actually based on the "original Greek Accoridng to the text followed in the Authorized Version, edited by F. H. A. Scrivener and published in 1894-1902.

    The appendix carries a very good chart that compares the TR and MT and shows all variations in one place....very interesting chart.

    Anyway, the point of this discussion is---are there really verses in the KJV that have absolutely NO Greek authority and were derived specifically from the Vulgate?
     
  2. av1611jim

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    I have a question pertaining to your question.

    If it is true that there are verses in the KJV that have no Extant Greek MSS from which they came;
    And they obviously came from somewhere;
    And they evidently came from Latin OR ELSEWHERE;
    Then WHERE did they come from?

    Could it not be that the verses that are there now did in fact come from Greek MSS but which are NOW lost?

    I find this a much better and plausible explaination than some clown adding them.

    Just something to consider as possible.

    Just because we have found many more since 1604, it does not follow that some may not have been lost since then.

    It is plausible. Some here may think it a weak argument but I think it is no more weak that assuming somebody added them. I really do not think translators back in the day were any less honest than today's translators. In fact, I think they had a higher esteem for Scripture than many today. i.e. NWT folks.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  3. 4His_glory

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    It is a known fact that Erasmus did back tranlate from Latin into Greek when he was writting his Greek Text. Some of the words he reverse-translated can not be found in any of the 5000 plus manuscripts we have. I will grant av1611lim the fact that it is a possibility that they are included in a manuscript that is lost or yet to be discoverd. But we obviously cannot be certain and should then exerscise caution when asserting that they must be included as genuine.
     
  4. av1611jim

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    4 His-glory;

    Can you provide anything written BY Erasmus that clearly states this is what he did?
    I have never seen that and it would be interesting to me to see it.

    As I have said in other threads; I am certainly NOT against learning new things.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  5. Phillip

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    Jim, I admit that ANYTHING is possible. I just don't know. This was the first time that I realized that there were at least a few verses without Greek manuscript authority.

    I'm not trying to make that out to mean anything specific, it just came as a surprise to me and the discussion of such is interesting.

    It is certainly possible that a manuscript has turned up missing. It is also possible someone decided to add it. I just don't know and I am not trying to make any conclusion of whether it is good or bad.

    I do think it is a good idea for these verses to remain in newer translations (or at least study guides like my Interlinear) and I certainly have no problem with a footnote stating that there has been no Greek authority found for this verse.

    I know some will disagree, saying that it casts doubt on the scriptures. I don't think so. The main reason is that none of these scriptures have held major doctrines that are not found elsewhere in the Bible.

    I guess we shall all find out someday, but I would imagine that it will be quite low on our list of priorities, with thanking and praising God as the number one priority. IMHO.

    Its a lot like the contemporary Christian song: "I can only imagine."
     
  6. 4His_glory

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    To find anything written by Erasmus concerning what he did will be difficult. But there is more than one source to point that he actually did this. Why do you have to find what Erasmus actually said himself instead of believing crdeible witnesses?

    I'll see what I can find.
     
  7. 4His_glory

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    Here is one interesting read concerning this topic:
    http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1186

    There are many others, I will keep looking for somthing straight from Erasmus, since you refuse to accept the word of others who do their homework.
     
  8. av1611jim

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    Phillip
    Thanks. That makes sense. ;)
    4His-glory
    Why do I want to see what he wrote? Documentation, documentation,documentation.
    It seems to be a "mantra" around this forum. [​IMG]
    I don't refuse to accept the word of others who do their homework, unless they can't prove their assertion. [​IMG] (edit) And after reading the article at the link you provided, the man didn't.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I nearly always seek documentation.
     
  10. HankD

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    There are about 500 exisiting Greek mss which contain 1 John chapter 5 and of those verse 7 is contained in 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century).

    It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelveth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century).

    It has strong Latin witness both in mss and fathers.

    HankD
     
  11. Scott J

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    Hank, How many of those mss read like the TR?
     
  12. 4His_glory

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    Anyone that is KJVO will say that anyone who is not does not do their homework, seems like a useless battle to me.
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    ..and vice versa 4hg, let us not forget.
     
  14. Phillip

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    Ah, well, we can always chalk it up to later day inspiration. :D
     
  15. 4His_glory

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    True more often than not it goes both ways. It seems that KJVOs tend to be more stuborn though. I know... I used to be one. ;) The real trouble I have with the whole issue is when some make it a test of fellowship.
     
  16. gb93433

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    I always wonder what happened to the other two letters to the Corinthians and the letter to the Laodecians.
     
  17. gb93433

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    I would always wonder why the verses before and after the tywo verses in dispute are found in other manuscripts before 1611 but not the two in the middle that Erasmus doctored.

    Virtually impossible that a single manuscript would contain two verses that got lost. I have yet to see any copies of manuscripts which have 2 verses or less on a page or leaf.
     
  18. HankD

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    There are minor variations in the Greek and some greater deviations in the Itala some of which add "and these three are one in Christ Jesus" (and the Clementine Vulgate).

    Some Itala reverse verses 7 and 8.

    There are no definite articles in Latin, so of course they are not there.
    Other minor variations: Substitute dant for dictum, etc.

    For these details and more see an aparatus (for instance):
    The Greek New Testament, Aland UBS, 1968. 2 Edition, Pg. 824.

    HankD
     
  19. av1611jim

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    Still waiting for proof Erasmus doctored anything.

    [​IMG] :eek: Or EVEN a link to his writings proving it. I can't find it. Help me out guys. It is your contention, so prove it!

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  20. 4His_glory

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    Jim, you were given a well documented link to read, not my problem if you won't except it. I could show you others but what is the use, you will ignore them anyhow.

    The fact is Erasmus did not "doctor" anything. He back translated from Latin into Greek because the copy of Revelation he was using was not complete. Therefore you find some words that you do not find in any other Greek manuscript.
     

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