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Texts That Do NOT Support Original Sin

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 18, 2007.

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  1. grahame

    grahame New Member

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    My dear friends. I am sorry that my words have been consistently misunderstood. This has nothing to do with the sins of any babies. This verse cannot be used as a proof text for Original sin. Perhaps "Original sin" is a bad term, because it conveys the wrong idea that babies are being "punished" for something that they certainly have not done. But rather the doctrine or original sin is speaking of the notion that we are all sinners, not because we "learn" to be sinners. But rather because it is within "our nature" to sin.

    Surely this is not something that is alien even to this scientific culture in which we live? With all our "gene" technology, where scientists say that we all inherit characteristics from our parents. If all our physical characteristics are inherited from our parents, then why not our "moral" characteristics as well? And if our moral characteristics, then why not include sin in these characteristics?

    This will surely explain why there are no sinless people walking around in the world today, not even "walking" children. When you repented, did you repent of your "childish" sins? Well you should have done my friends.

    Why are we so taken up with something that scripture is for the most part, silent upon? I believe even as enlightened Christians, there are so many things about our dear Lord that we are ignorant of. I believe we all will be very surprised when (by the grace of God) we get to heaven as to who we will find there. And dare I say it? Who we will not see there. All I know is that God's infinite grace goes far deeper than we can imagine.

    I remember asking in idle curiosity a question of my friend and mentor many years ago. I said to him, "Do you think those who are mentally ill and who have no discernment will go to hell?" He replied, "And I suppose if you were God, you would send them there?". I immediately got the message. Of course not. Jesus said, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father". So read through the gospels my dear friends. Observe our dear Lord's love and understanding of our poor fallen human hearts. Look as the mercy he shows towards those who are weak and sick. The compassion he showed. Note the way he refers to little children and the gentle way he treated people. Surely all this should be a lesson for us to display the same characteristics in our own lives? If we err in our understanding of the scriptures, I would rather a person err on the side of love and gentleness, than to err in the way the Pharisees and Sadducees did and many still do. God forbid that we should ever lose sight of these things as we discuss such truths, of which some are so difficult to comprehend.

    Neither do I believe that babies will be punished for those sins that they have not committed. And if you understand the gospel rightly, neither will He punish anyone for sins that they have not committed. For this would be unjust and our God is a just God.

    But we must still explain why people die. For even babies die. For the scripture says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Original sin is all about this. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

    As for babies going to heaven. As I said before. The scripture is silent on this. Perhaps it is silent for a reason? For we are told in the scriptures that, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children." So perhaps it is that we should leave those secret things up to God who judges righteously and who is also full of mercy and compassion, such as we as meer mortals can never know.

    But we must as Christians believe this. That nothing ever happens, or ever will happen either in this world or the next without our blessed Lord Jesus Christ.
    If babies are going to heaven, then it is only through the work of Christ on the cross that they are going there. Not only that. But Christ's work in his life and on the cross even reached far into the past to cover all those sins that were committed then, from the foundation of the world. (Romans 3:25) Christ's work has had far reaching effects, far beyond that we can ever imagine. And there is nothing that has happened or will happen without him.
    Indeed there are paradoxes in scripture. Not all things can be boxed up and tied with a nice tidy bow. We only know what scripture tells us and scripture has left us guessing on some things. If it didn't then there would not be these arguments and disagreements.
     
    #121 grahame, Jan 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2007
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, I will say one more time that according to scripture it is by the blood of Jesus that all who go to Heaven will go.
    I also say that through His death and resurrection, He conquered over DEATH, HELL AND THE GRAVE. Well, if a child has not sinned then it don't need to be saved from HELL, but it does need to be raised from the Grave and over Death. If the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead, it shall also quicken your mortal body.

    I can't see where this does not answer how that children will go to Heaven who have no sin by the blood of Christ. Otherwise, they would remain just dead and that would be it.

    Now why would they have to die the natural death. I never thought there was ever a question about that. Adam sinned and brought the "appointment of death" upon all man kind. We can't change that death no matter how we use scriptures. It is the second death we are concerned about but also it has been thrown into the mix, how will children go to Heaven. Well, except Jesus had of died they would of remained in the grave forever for they had no sin to be resurrected for the "second death", and if not for the death of Jesus then the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead would not raise the child if Jesus had not of died for the sin of the whole world, which would cover Adam's sin also, so we could be made alive.

    It seems to me that the discussion is that we need that OS for the blood of Christ to cover the children so they go to Heaven. And some say the child does not sin so there are others that want to bring an inherited sin so the child still has sin then the blood of Christ would cover it. Well, His blood did not only conquer HELL, it also conquered the death that Adam sent on us and we need the blood for that also. I see the blood saving sinners from two deaths. One is the natural death where His Spirit will quicken your mortal body, two is the second death where all unbelievers go. The child only needed number One.

    I may be blinded to what is being said. Sometimes people talk over my head. I like to keep it simple so all will understand.
     
    #122 Brother Bob, Jan 23, 2007
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  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Here is a question just to keep the blood flowing in the cranial region. :)

    If the death Jesus conquered was physical, why do believers and innocents still die? Maybe I should ask 'in what sense' did Christ conquer death and is there a sense in which it is still awaiting us just as it has awaited all mortals before and after the atonement.

    "It is appointed once for man to die."
     
    #123 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 23, 2007
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: The simple answer is that were created as mortals, to live on a temporary physical planet for a finite period of time. If we all die in Adam, and you say that is physical death, what about Enoch and Elijah and all those that will meet the Lord in the air at the return of Christ to the earth? Are they not part of the ‘all?’
     
    #124 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 23, 2007
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Rom 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Though we still have to die, by His Spirit we shall be quickened again and conquer over that death of Adam. If not for Christ we would never have the victory over the grave. "oh grave, where is thy victory".

    1Cr 15:54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. ( The death that came because of Adam)
     
    #125 Brother Bob, Jan 23, 2007
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  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This verse is used to support many opposing ideas. It is used as a supportive text for universalism, as well as a proof text to establish original sin. I say it serves neither camps presuppositions, that must be taken to the text in order for it to support either view.

    I take to this text the presupposition that Scripture clearly indicates that all will not be saved. The question still remains, does it support the idea of OS? If this verse does support the notion that all are born in sin due to Adam, I would have to maintain that all will be made alive in Christ which again teaches universalism. I cannot in good faith accept universalism, therefore I cannot extrapolate this verse to mean that all are sinners due to Adam. What then is the meaning of this text?

    As physical descendents of Adam, we indeed do inherit a physical nature from him. God has designed that our physical body as a result of sin to have a shortened lifespan. We clearly have inherited that. But does this fact correspond in any way to Christ making all alive? What is the correct correlation that the apostle is trying to make?

    The most that can be made of this text, in light of the correlation that it is expressing and avoiding the trap of making it support universalism, is the following. Just as Adam, by his influence and sin paved the way for the influences of that sin to affect the whole human race, Christ has on the cross, by His substitutionary sacrifice, paved the way or made possible the salvation of all. It is not as if though Adam’s sin coerced all to be sinners, and neither did the death on the cross coerce all to become righteous, but rather that both served as formidable influences in the lives of those that choose sin and die, as well as those that choose life and live eternally. Just as those that choose to sin, even if not in the same similitude as that of Adam’s sin, have done so voluntarily but influenced greatly by Adam’s transgression, so those that choose life will do so on the account of what Christ did for us on the cross, yet voluntarily by personal formation of an intent to repent and believe. In the same vein one sins voluntarily by the personal formation of a selfish intent to gratify the flesh.

    Just as Adam, by his sinful influence paved the way for all to be influenced to sin, Christ, by His righteous life and substitutionary death paved the way for all to be influenced to salvation.
     
    #126 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 26, 2007
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This text has often been used to support the notion of OS, or universal constitutional moral depravity. The question is, does it really teach that?

    If one would just read this verse as it is written, the verse explains exactly and precisely why death has passed upon all men, and constitutional depravity is no where in the text. It clearly states that the reason why death has passed upon all men is due to the fact that “all have sinned.”

    How simple are the answers if we approach the text with an open mind and not with a presupposition of the false Augustinian notion that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh and not in the will.

    We would do well as a church if we would just accept the Scriptural fact together that indeed all have sinned, and leave the philosophical notions of men like Augustine delegated to be discussed in the philosophical classrooms. One thing is for certain. Such philosophical notions such as Augustine’s notion of OS, should never be required of anyone in any church to raise their right hand in support of, and should be stricken from every doctrinal manual. It is enough that we all agree on the facts of all men being sinners, and allow freedom of thought as to why this fact is true. We would do well to heed the advice and council of John Wesley in this regard. Here is what he shared for the listener.


    Wesley on Original sin. “Our moral faculties have been distorted by the Fall, but `nothing is sin, strictly speaking, but a voluntary transgression of the known will of God'.

    Wesley on Liberty of Thought ““The Scripture does not, that I remember, anywhere say, in express words, that the sin of Adam is imputed to his children; or, that the sins of believers are imputed to Christ; or, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers: but the true meaning of these expressions is sufficiently found in several places of Scripture.” “Yet since these express words and phrases, , of the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to us, are not plainly written in Scripture we should not impose it on every Christian, to use these very expressions. Let every one take his liberty, either of confining himself to strictly Scriptural language, or manifesting his sense of these plain Scriptural doctrines, in words and phrases of his own.”
     
    #127 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 26, 2007
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