Thank Calvin for your freedom

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Dec 17, 2010.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    I wonder if the enemies of Calvinism have ever thought about the fact that Calvin is directly responsible for this great and free nation we live in.

    One guy in the "Calvinism and Fundamnetalism" thread had the audacity to say that Calvinism is a "scourge".

    I wonder how much people who make those remarks really know about history and theology.

    Do they not know that the Pilgrims were not IFBer's- that they were Calvinists?

    Do they not know that the Puritans who did as much to carve out this nation of ours as anybody were Calvinists?

    Do they not know that John Calvin is considered to be THE founding father of America???

    Do they not know that King George called the American Revolution- "The Presbyterian War"?

    Do they not know that when they spit in Calvinism's eye they spit in the eye of their own heritage???????


     
  2. matt wade

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    Anything associated with Vision Forum Ministries and Doug Phillips is something to be wary of.
     
  3. Luke2427

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    I have no idea who they are right off the top of my head- but they are right and a thousand other articles can be presented to support the exact same notion.

    And they are not misquoting these people.

    The fact remains that the article is true.

    It will not be hard to verify by a thousand others like it.
     
  4. matt wade

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    You have no idea who they are, yet you post an article that almost exclusively quotes them? You should try and figure out who your sources are before you use them.

    Your entire post is called to task because of your source. It would be the same if your quoted source was Hitler. Would I be correct to go on guard if your source was Hitler? So, when I see your source is Doug Phillips, I go on guard.
     
  5. RAdam

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    No, thank God for your freedom. Thank God for blessing us with good men to lead us in those times. Thank God for blessing us with wise men to carve out a wonderful constitution. Thank God for blessing this country with baptists who fought for freedom of religion.
     
  6. sag38

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    Wow, so the next time I see a Calvinist I need to give him or her a hug for my freedom? Please!!!
     
  7. Crabtownboy

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    Calvin was not much on freedom for individuals. I believe he would be appalled at the freedoms we have in America and the way these freedoms are allowed to be lived. The people of Geneva certainly had no such freedoms under Calvin.


    Yes the Pilgrims were Calvinist ... but if you really read about their actions they were not in favor of religious freedom for anyone other than themselves. The persecuted and banned those who did not agree with them.


    Would you elaborate on this please. Thanks.

    Never heard that before and I majored in history and have read lots of American history during my life. It is true that he held some beliefs that were incorporated into the American system of government as were many of the ideas of the French Enlightenment philosophers.

    Calvin was pretty much a dictator in Geneva. He certainly would not have held open free and fair elections. Remember he was guilty of murder. On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!

    So much for liberty under Calvin.

    King George said many things. He was not the brightest of the bright you know.

    The real heroes of American religious liberty were the Virginia Baptists.
     
  8. Luke2427

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    Wise men who were Calvinists.

    We have God to thank for every good thing. That doesn't mean we are not thankful for the people he uses to give those good things to us and the philosophies which drove them to give them to us.

    We thank the fireman for pulling us out of the burning building- we thank God for the fireman and saving us through him and his philosophy which drove him through the flames to get to us.

    Just so we thank God for our founders and their philosophy which was Calvinism.
     
  9. Luke2427

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    You can hug me. I don't mind.
     
  10. matt wade

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    So can we thank the Calvinists for the Salem Witch Trials as well?
     
  11. Luke2427

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    This article should answer your questions.

    BTW, I attend Liberty University which is anti-Calvinistic. They don't say anything in their history classes about Calvin either. Wonder why?

     
    #11 Luke2427, Dec 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2010
  12. sag38

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    No thanks, my thanks don't go to the Puritans. They were far from being lovers of real freedom. If I recall correctly Baptist weren't non too popular in Puritan strongholds.

    If I were a five pointer I be embarrased that someone was even saying something so arrogant in support of my theology.
     
  13. Luke2427

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    If you like you may. However, since you do currently enjoy freedom and have never attended a witch trial in your life- it would make better sense to just that Calvin for freedom.
     
  14. Luke2427

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    This is problematic.

    If you cannot thank any of your forefathers because you do not agree with everything they were involved in then you can have NO appreciation for you heritage.

    Most of our founding fathers were slave owners. Do you despise them for that?

    The fact of the matter is that we thank God for our founders, most of whom were Puritans. And we thank God for that which what molded their thinking into the pursuit of Independence- which was by and large- Calvinism.

    Historians agree that this is the case.
     
  15. preacher4truth

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    Yep. That's where my thanks goes.

    I mean, God led Calvin to do these things, by His Sovereign grace, correct?

    And we are not to give God's glory to mere man
    .
     
  16. RAdam

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    This is why I've long stated I'm not a Calvinist. I'm a believers in the doctrines of grace, but I am not a Calvinist.

    If you think Calvin was so great, why aren't you a presby?

    Do you even realize that the presbies wanted to run things the same way the Anglicans and Catholics did. It was the Baptists, who were not Calvinists but doctrines of grace believers, who fought for the religious freedoms you have today. Those baptists had been persecuted by pretty much every group - Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterian, you name it. They did not want church and state to be synonomous, as it had been too often in the past, including when Calvinists had been in charge.

    Thank Calvin? What rubbish! If not for the baptists who fought, and most of all God who blessed us with the wonderful freedoms we now posses, then Calvin would have given us more of the same.
     
  17. Luke2427

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    Then never thank ANY man for anything.

    Do not thank George Washington.

    do not thank Martin Luther.

    Do not thank the fireman who may one day rescue you from a burning building.

    Never thank any human for anything.

    Of course since the Bible does not teach that, it would be better to thank God for the ones he uses to bless you.

    Therefore, you can thank Calvin, the instrument God used, for both your freedom and your theology.
     
    #17 Luke2427, Dec 17, 2010
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  18. Luke2427

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  19. preacher4truth

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    I thank God first and foremost. I am sorry you struggle with that. I'm not here to sing the praises of man, or type them, or speak them, for whatever loophole you might find in that statement. To me it is idolatrous in nature, which shows another reason why I won't become thematic about Calvinism. So let's agree to disagree and leave it lie. All the subpoints you can give on this in further attempt to prove you're right are a given. I just don't happen to agree with them.
     
  20. Crabtownboy

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    The point is we do not have religious freedom because of Calvin or the Puritans. We have it because Virginia Baptists and other Baptists fought tooth and nail to have it included in the Bill of Rights. There was no religious freedom under the original Constitution. Many, and I expect some Puritans wanted State religious ... i.e. the Anglican Church in Virginia and Puritans in Massachusetts. Others could be banned or persecuted at will ... as happened in Virginia prior to the Bill of Rights being adopted into the Constitution.

    The Puritans [Calvinists] were not pro other people's religious freedom!

    Remember ... Roger Williams, preached religious toleration, separation of Church and State, and a complete break with the Church of England, was banished and founded Rhode Island Colony, which became a haven for other refugees from the Puritan community, such as Anne Hutchinson. Quakers were brutally expelled from Massachusetts. They were welcomed in Rhode Island
     
    #20 Crabtownboy, Dec 17, 2010
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