That Nasty Old Nature

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    Sometimes we need a reality check as theologians. Why is it that we operate one way in life while approaching theology from ideas absurd in light of reality?

    We are told that everyone sins due to ones nature, and that sin is unavoidable in our lives. But how do we live? Say our child came in and told us that they had just committed a sin, like stealing or robbing a bank. Would anyone on the list coddle them by saying ‘everyone does it.’ ‘You could not do otherwise for your nature controls what you do.’ ‘Regardless of your sin, God ordained it for His glory.’ Just wondering.
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 27, 2007
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  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    What if your sixteen year old son or daughter came home and told you that they could not have avoided staying out all night and drinking and cavorting at a party, for they were just acing in accordance to their nature? And besides, all that they had done in reality had to have been ordained by God and all for His glory. They claim their actions were really nothing more than the fulfilment of their predestined destiny again all ordained by God. They were just simply engaged in the fulfilment of that necessitated destiny.

     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    Your attacks on predestination is really getting tiresome, but at least your trying hard! lol :laugh:

    I would rebuke my child and remind them of what their father taught from a child, that they had known the Scriptures that they who practice such things show forth what they are and will not inherit the kingdom of God. I would exhort them to repent of their sins and be saved. I would also remind them of the true understanding of the decree of God as they have been taught by their mother and father:

    "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."

    "God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

    I would remind them of the catechism instruction:

    Q. What is the duty which God requireth of man?
    A. The duty which God requireth of man, is obedience to his revealed will.

    Q. What doth every sin deserve?
    A. Every sin deserveth God’s wrath and curse, both in this life, and that which is to come.

    Q. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse, due to us for sin?
    A. To escape the wrath and curse of God, due to us for sin, God requireth of us faith in Jesus Christ, repentance unto life, with the diligent use of all the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption.
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: How is placing our theological notions into a practical setting to see ones responses seen as an ‘attack??’ If it feels like an attack, possibly one might need to adjust their theology.



    HP: I stand completely amazed. I do not believe I have read a post more relevant to truth than the one you have just posted. :thumbs: All I can say is “Oh those BLESSED inconsistencies!!” :thumbs: :thumbs:

    How is your advice to your son or daughter consistent with your theology? Do you believe that if they start listening closely to your theology that they will see any real need to pay attention to your advice?
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

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    I will leave that for you to judge HP. Let me share with you what I think your difficulty is.

    In what we teach our children, both the absolute sovereignty of God and their responsibility as free moral agents, is consistent in two things:

    1. It is the teaching of the Scriptures.
    2. They are consistent with one another.

    The second point (get ready to shout for joy) is based entirely on the presupposition that the Scriptures are the inherent, infallible Word of God. God cannot lie or be contradictory or inconsistent in Himself. Since both things (Absolute predestination and free-will (not libertarian free-will) are taught in Scripture, both are correct, good and true.

    The fact that my mind may or may not percieve a consistency or percieves a tension between the two is irrelavant. If one finds themselves unable to reconcile the teachings then account that to be your own lack of wisdom and ignorance. Do not destroy the Word of God for your own inabilities!

    To a sinning and errant child who might have the audacity to use a doctrine of God to justify their wickedness would be further evidence of their utter depravity. Their (and our) responsibillty is to obey God. If we find ourselves transgressors and sinners and have not Christ, that person ought to expect nothing but wrath and indignation from an All Holy God and should immediately repent and believe the Gospel.

    The cause, IMO, is your amazment is you posit a form of predestination no historic calvinist has ever taught or believed. One might find such beliefs among hyper-calvinism, but it is not proper calvinsim.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    RB, before I get hoarse shouting Hallelujah after your last post, I have yet another short question. What instruction would you give your child under the same conditions that had claimed to have placed their faith in the Lord previously as a child?
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    If I understand your question correctly, is if I were to find my child seeking to use the holy doctrines of God to justify their wicked and perverse behavior, but had made some sort of public confession of faith (i.e. my daughter says she believes on Christ and has been baptized) what would I say to them?

    The answer would be among great tears and great heartbreaking for my child and opening my Bible to share:

    "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13

    And,

    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." Phil 2:16

    I may start asking my child question like from this text: "My son (duaghter) have a labored in prayer and teaching and patience for you all these years in vain? Did I not contantly remind you to beware of false conversion? Did not the tree I planted in our front yard, that had the appearance of a peach tree, but bore no fruit, stick in your memory as I often used it to warn you that if you bear no fruit you are not Christs'? And now you come to tell me that you may continue in sin because grace abounds?

    Oh decieved and wicked child! How forgetful and hard of heart you have become! Have you never read that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Have you never read and heard from your mother how the wicked and the righteous are plainly evident? Those who practice sin are of the devil. But the one who practices righteousness is born of God?

    Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for apparantly no work of God has been wrought in your heart by His Spirit that you would act so wickedly."

    RB
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Ok. So you would take the position that they had never been saved. Interesting. What it would seem to me that you are saying is that if fruits are not consistent with your faith, you must never have been saved. That is even more interesting. No works, no salvation,....... or could it be that that your child was never predestined to election in the first place?
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: While we wait on RB to respond to my last post, I might inject a couple of thoughts. First, what does RB mean by his statement here? If one is born in sin, and has failed to produce works he implies are evidence of one being saved, is it not also true that they have not ‘became’ anything, for they are only showing fruit as to what they have been predestined to be by the ordination/predestination of God upon their lives? Why the instruction ‘as IF though’ they are somehow to blame for their actions? If predestination is true, and all is ordained by God from eternity past, is one able by their own will to act differently than what they do? Is that not clearly suggesting that man's will is able to thwart the predestined plan of God? Is it not true, according the Calvinistic scheme of things, that IF one is ever saved it has nothing to with anything man does, period? How many times has ‘works’ been detested as having anything to do with salvation, either gaining or keeping it?

    What ever happened to once a son always a son notion or OSAS? Why would not our instruction be to the child that is wayward and disobedient, IF we are to be seen as consistent with ones honestly held theology, simply that it does not matter what you do, God loves you and you are His child and we as parents love you as well? We certainly prefer you to do something other than what you do, but we know full well that what you do has nothing to do with your salvation, and besides, as a believer you are only carrying out the predestined preplanned will of God and it is all for His glory. Thinking more deeply, why would one desire or prefer a child to do anything other than that which has been predestined by God that was all for God’s glory?? Should we as parents not just be praising the child for carrying out God’s predestined plan regardless of how wicked it might appear to us in our finite state?

    Reality check! How could it be any different? Is our child’s will or our willful desire strong enough to thwart predestined fate? Does anyone besides myself start to get a grip on the tangled web of absolute nonsense Calvinistic determinism spins within the hearts and minds of its followers, whether or not they will admit to it or not?

    The duty of RB is to show the list that the instructions I have laid out are in any way inconsistent with his true sentiments and beliefs……..preached every other Sunday or at least clearly implied and properly deduced from the Calvinism he obviously holds to. RB need to clarify just how works can prove anything about his child’s relationship with God if in fact works have nothing to do with gaining or keeping salvation.

    I applaud RB’s instructions he initially gave, and rejoice in his inconsistencies, but what I believe is the truth is that such is only effective and true as it is shown to be at direct antipodes with the Calvinism he states and or implies he holds to. I would say that his theology needs to be adjusted to fit the wise instruction he would give to his children. At some point in time if he does not, his children are going to figure out that his instructions are really meaningless in light of the theology he believes in.
     

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