That's the Spirit

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Feb 12, 2003.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I hope there is no dispute that if one does not have the Spirit, one is not saved.

    Assuming we all agree on that, here's the quiz for the day: Which comes first, the receiving of the Holy Spirit or salvation?

     
  2. William C

    William C
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    Even Jacobus Arminius taught that the Holy Spirit must work before one can be saved. Try to stick to issues that we actually disagree on.
     
  3. sturgman

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    This is one we disagree on, because you say that we being not the apostles, are responcable to freely decide, without God's intervention. If man cannot believe without God's help, then this provides a paradox that you do not like.

    How is this NOT relevent?
     
  4. Frogman

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    I particularly like Romans 10.14 where the Roman Road narrows to such a degree that there is only one way to traverse it, in the arms of the Holy Spirit.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. William C

    William C
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    Saying that the Holy Spirit must work before salvation can occur is not unique to Calvinists. Arminians have always believed this, at least the ones I've read.

    We disagree on the point of "effectual calling." You assume that when the Holy Spirit works he must "effectually call," while Arminians say that the Holy Spirit "pricks" or "moves" in the heart so as to reveal the truth allowing the man to make a decision based upon that truth and the cost that truth brings. "Before a man builds a tower shouldn't he sit down and consider the cost." This is the man's will at work after it has been presented with the truth of the gospel. He must decide whether or not he should build that tower, so too he must decide whether or not to follow Christ.

    Now, I believe that those who heard the words of Christ couldn't come to him unless God enabled them. For during that time God was blinding the hearts of the Jews, expect for the remnant (including his apostles). Which is why Jesus says what he does in John 6 about being enabled to come.

    Bro. Bill
     
  6. sturgman

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    Then I will leave it to Spurgeon, and ask, "If two men hear the same gospel message, and are offered the same call, and one man decides to follow the Lord and the other one does not, who made the difference, man or God?"

    And that is what I contend, that if there be a difference it is the Lord who made the difference.
     
  7. Frogman

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    Amen.
     
  8. npetreley

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    Add another Amen to that.

    As to the "work" of the Holy Spirit, the above verses do not lend themselves to the external influence of the Holy Spirit, if that's what you mean.

    Given the context of 1 Corinthians (the gifts of the Spirit), it would be awkward at best to interpret verse 12:3 as meaning anything but "by the Holy Spirit who dwells within you, if indeed you have the Spirit."

    That poses an insurmountable problem for free will, because of the following verse:

    Confessing "Jesus is Lord" is a prerequisite to salvation. Having the Spirit is a prerequisite to saying "Jesus is Lord". And if you have the Spirit, you already belong to Him. Free will doesn't enter into the process anywhere.
     
  9. 4study

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    The proposition: Some accept, some reject, and God makes the difference.

    A conclusion: God receives glory from those who reject Him.
     
  10. Primitive Baptist

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    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." [Romans 10:9]

    The one who confesses the Lord Jesus and believes on His name shall be saved with an everlasting salvation and shall receive the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls [I Peter 1:9]. Not that faith is the condition for justification before the justice bar of God because that was settled by the precious blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit in those who have eternal life. The Arminians wrest this text as they do also the other Scriptures unto their own destruction.

    "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." [I John 4:15]

    One who confesses that Jesus is the Son of God manifests that God dwells in him and he in God, for "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" [I Corinthians 12:3]. This text does not teach "free will" doctrine.

    [ February 12, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    Only five verses from the closing of the canon of Scripture, God reminds us that He is always calling, all sinners to Himself. And rather than restricting the flow of sinners, He says, 'And whoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.'

    Also, consider Matthew 18:14 as portraying Jesus love toward all sinners. 'Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in Heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.'

    Luke 15:10 sure looks like repentance is a decision made by a human being and not one in which God hands to a sinner. Jesus also expresses His joy over any sinner who returns to His loving care.
     
  12. William C

    William C
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    That's simple.
    If the man says yes, God made all the difference and gets all the glory. If the man says no, it's the man's fault because he refused the GENIUNE CALLING of an honest God.

    Bill
     
  13. Primitive Baptist

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    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. [Revelation 22:17]

    To whom is this vocation addressed? It is addressed to "him that is athirst" and no other.

    Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. [Matthew 18:14]

    Who are the "little ones" to whom Jesus was speaking? Verse 13 identifies them as the "sheep." They are the "us-ward" in II Peter 3:9 whom God is not willing that they should perish but come to repentance.

    "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:4-10)

    I could not find a better cross reference to II Peter 3:9 if I tried.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Sturgman, I have not seen one post where anyone has made such a declaration that one can decide without God's intervention. Your strawman is groundless!
     
  15. npetreley

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    How is it possible to have "free" will that cannot decide something without God's intervention? If that makes sense to you, then I'd like to give you this free coffee cup for only $40.
     
  16. William C

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    How is it possible to have "free" will that cannot decide something without God's intervention? If that makes sense to you, then I'd like to give you this free coffee cup for only $40. </font>[/QUOTE]npetreley, can you understand something if it has not been revealed to you yet? No. Arminians agree that the Holy Spirit must reveal the truth to us which we believe is done through the hearing of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto Salvation.

    Calvinists assume that the Holy Spirit's revealation through the presetation of the gospel must be effectual. Therefore, they deny the working of the Holy Spirit through the presenation of the gospel to those who are not His elect.

    Scripture clearly indicates the the call of the gospel and thus the call of the Holy Spirit's power within that gospel is universal and meant for all men to hear and respond.

    "The Spirit of the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."

    The Gospel call is universal and the Spirit's call is universal. They are not "academic" or "fake". They are geniune calls to faith and repentance!

    Bill
     
  17. npetreley

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    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    Also agreed, although you left out an important factor. Most Arminians would state that as faith comes by hearing the word of God. But the BIble says faith comes by hearing --- and hearing comes by the word of God.

    Now you are jumping to conclusions, and doing so without the support of scripture.

    Again, you are jumping to conclusions and making connections that are not explicitly stated in scripture.

    That describes Calvinism perfectly. Him who hears. Whoever is thirsty. Whowever wishes. The questions you have not answered from scripture are: Who hears, and how? Who is thirsty, and why? Who wishes, and why?

    The call to repent and believe is certainly universal. It is a genuine call. The ability to respond is not universal, however.

    "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

    "But without faith it is impossible to please Him"

    "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

    It doesn't take a logics major to see that one must have the Spirit to have saving faith. The above verses are not talking about a wooing influence of the Spirit, they are talking about the Spirit living in the believer.

    Now you can question till you're blue in the face why God would give a universal call but limited ability to respond. But given a choice between your invented explanations to the contrary and scripture's unambiguous statement that it's true, I'll take scripture's word for it that it's true.
     
  18. William C

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    There are several issues I want to respond to but I'm going to break it up. First you wrote inregard to my quote as follows:

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Brother Bill:
    Calvinists assume that the Holy Spirit's revealation through the presetation of the gospel must be effectual. Therefore, they deny the working of the Holy Spirit through the presenation of the gospel to those who are not His elect.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm stating what you believe here, not what I believe about what scripture teach. You critizing your own conclusion, not mine.

    Are you saying that you do believe the Holy Spirit reveals himself to all the lost in the presentation of the Gospel. Or are you saying that you don't believe that the Holy Spirit effectually calls? I'm confused to what you don't agree with about my statement. Please explain.

    Bill
     
  19. npetreley

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    I'm stating what you believe here, not what I believe about what scripture teach. You critizing your own conclusion, not mine.</font>[/QUOTE]You cannot understand what you wrote, then. Here you are not only stating what you think Calvinists believe, but you also say they deny something I assume you believe to be true. If you don't believe it to be true, then I can't imagine why you're bothering to talk about this. Regardless, you state it without explanation or scriptural support.

    Are you saying you've stopped beating your wife, or are you saying you only beat her on thursdays?

    Perhaps if you ask some real questions instead of leading questions, it will be worthwhile to answer them.
     
  20. William C

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    Npetreley you are just being difficult.

    Simply explain what it was about that first quote that you don't agree with? I really don't know. I didn't think Calvinist believed that the Holy Spirit worked in anyone but the elect. And I thought that Calvinist also supported the teaching of effectual calling. That is what I say in that quote and you won't tell me what it is that you disagree with. And why do I need to give scriptural support to back up what you believe?

    You're not making any sense whatsoever.

    Bill
     

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