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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Monergist, Jul 17, 2004.
Here's a great quote from JI Packer's intro to John Owen's The Death of Death.
Salvation was purchased 100% by my Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.
The choosing to be saved was 100% me.
So I would have to conclude that the author of The Death Of Death makes no "sense at all"
Amen and Amen!!!!!
Calvin did have one point...but as long as he kept his hat on noone noticed!
The fur's going to fly on this one!
Count me out. It is one thing to point out that Arminians have turned God Almighty into God Almostmighty. But making adolescent cracks about Arminius himself says nothing about the flaws in the doctrine.
Who's making cracks about Arminius?
Nobody, StefanM (at least not yet). I simply meant that there's no point in responding in kind to a crack about Calvin. Thus you can count me out of the fur flying part.
Perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant as the cause of the fur flying. If so, then sorry!
Either you were saved by a process that involves 200%, or you have to share the glory 50/50 with God. Far be it from me to prevent you from claiming 50% of the glory. I know where to place my bets, though, as to whether you get it.
Either you were saved by a process that involves 200%, or you have to share the glory 50/50 with God. Far be it from me to prevent you from claiming 50% of the glory. I know where to place my bets, though, as to whether you get it. </font>[/QUOTE]This is the fur flying of which I spoke.
Well, that's all the fur I think I'll yank for now.
The opening post is a bogus statement about Arminians - but a valid statement about what Calvinists think of Arminians.
THE differnce is that the Arminian DOES NOT believe that the one who ACCEPTS the infinite gift of salvation "did ANY of the work of He who CREATED it at great cost to Himself".
Calvinists think the begger has "EARNED" the infinite gift by merely stretching out the hand.
"Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness."
I don't know what kind of percentage to put on that but it certainly seems that Paul didn't have any problem giving this man credit for his faith. Why do Calvinists have such a problem with that?
God gave me the ability to choose faith and to choose to believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. This come's from God's grace.
If I do make this choice, then God's grace saves me. All this ultimately comes from God. But all have this Goid-given ability to make the choice.
Under this theology, God still gets all the "credit", which is something Calvinists can't seem to understand.
That isn't logical and it doesn't square with scripture. If you "chose," as you say, and another doesn't choose, is it because you are somehow smarter, less sinful, less dead, less blind, less hardened, etc? Anyway you slice it, you are still, with this scheme, claiming part of the credit for salvation.
Because Abraham's faith, like ours, was a gift from God. Remember how God chose Abraham?
Yes, and remeber how God chose Israel and then the Gentiles?
Men are held accoutable for their lack of faith. Why would Jesus rebuke men for having no faith when He should rebuke God for not giving men faith?
Plus, your response doesn't answer the question. Paul credited Abraham for his faith, yet you refuse to credit man. Regardless of what the source of faith may be it doesn't change the fact that man is credited for it. You are not willing to do that as a Calvinists yet Paul is; thus Paul is no Calvinist, or he is just a really bad one.
Two people are dead in their sins. God elects to save one and not the other. The who is saved owes 100% of the glory to God, since the only difference between him and the unsaved is what God did. .
Two people are dead in their sins. God "offers" them both salvation. One makes a choice to believe, and the other makes a choice not to believe. The only difference between the two is the decision they made. God may get the glory for providing the way to salvation, but the saved man can rightly boast of having made the "right" decision. God must share the glory with the man for having made the right decision, since God left it up to him and his free will.
1 Cor 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
Notice that it DOESN'T say "not many might, not many noble, believe. It says they aren't CALLED.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
How many people have you met who boast about their decision to humbly admit their sin and submit to Christ as their Lord? How many people were boasting of their faith in Paul's day? NNE.
The boasting that Paul is combating is that of the Jews who still believe in a salvation through the works of the Law, not those who affirm that salvation only comes by Grace through faith! When will you ever get that through your head Nick? The "boasting" passages aren't addressing Arminians and therefore to apply them to us is not only poor hermeneutics but its bad theology all around.
People are rightly abhorant of works based salvation and you have desperately attempted to make Arminianism a works based soteriology so as to dismiss it all together, but it is not based upon works as its means, its based upon faith. Faith is held up as the means of righteousness as opposed to works of the law and you've have tried to make them one in the same so as to discredit Arminianism, but you do so to the neglect of the clear teaching of the scripture.
If a man is drowning and someone throws out a life-line and the man grabs it who gets 100% of the credit for saving the man?