The 12th Apostle

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Jan 27, 2012.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    Revelation 21:14 states that in the foundations of the wall of the city will be the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Who is considered to the 12th apostle? Will it be Judas, or will it be Matthias (Acts 1:15-26), or will it be Paul?
     
  2. beameup

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    Matthias was one of "the twelve".
    Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles - Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11

    Judas was the "son of perdition".
     
  3. Zenas

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    Matthias. I believe the only reason this question ever arises is that there is an undercurrent of belief that the appointment of Matthias was somehow not legitimate.
     
  4. DaChaser1

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    think many of us here hold as I do that the Apostle paul was the One that God had intended to be the actual replacement for Judas!
     
  5. Scarlett O.

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    I agree. It's Matthias. I've never understood how people view the selection of Matthias as not legitmate.

    • Acts 1 says that for the 40 days following Christ's resurrection, that He spent it giving them many "convincing proofs" and "teachings about the kingdom". These guys just had a 40 day spiritual boot camp with the resurrected Jesus Christ!
    • He tells them that they are about to receive a great power for the purpose of being His witnesses.
    • Jesus told his followers to go Jerusalem and wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They obeyed Him.
    • While they (120 of them) were waiting, both the men and women, they were in "continual" and "united" prayer.
    • Peter begins to cite scripture that prophecied of Judas and his betrayal and how his place must be given to someone else. This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that God brought that scripture to his mind.
    • They sought out only qualified people and found two. But most importantly of all - they prayed to God and allowed God to make the final decision.
    Today, we have individual Christians, entire churches and entire denominations for that matter who don't and won't obey Christ like this and seek God like these 120 people did.

    I've never understood why people want to make Paul the "12th" apostle who gets to have his name written on a heavenly wall's foundation.

    Besides....is that verse in Revelation actually literal? Are there going to be some names of flawed albeit Godly men exalted in heaven by having their names literally carved into the foundations of heavenly walls?

    We won't be able to see the names. They will be in the foundation.

    Perhaps this is figurative - perhaps this is talking about something else.
     
  6. DaChaser1

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    Maybe because we see Paul as being THE Apostle to the gentiles, as as such, was just as being inspired as the other 11 were from God!
     
  7. Amy.G

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    Acts 1
    21 “Therefore, from among the men who have accompanied us during the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day He was taken up from us—from among these, it is necessary that one become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

    23 So they proposed two: Joseph, called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “You, Lord, know the hearts of all; show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take the place in this apostolic service that Judas left to go to his own place.” 26 Then they cast lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias. So he was numbered with the 11 apostles.


    Paul was not with them throughout the 3 year ministry of Christ. He could not have been the 12th apostle.

    Paul was an apostle, specifically chosen to take the gospel to the Gentiles.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    Of course Paul was inspired! :flower:

    Of course he was an apostle. Anyone who had a personal and literal encounter with Christ on this earth and was called by Christ to spread the gospel was an apostle. One could argue that Paul was the greatest apostle in the Bible.

    He just wasn't Judas Iscariot's replacement.

    Just my two cents.
     
  9. DaChaser1

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    I see BOTh as being true!

    mattius chosen to be replacement for judas,while paul, as the greatest Apostle, one of those inshrined in the wall!
     
  10. Amy.G

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    Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    There is not 13 foundations.
     
  11. DaChaser1

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    Why wouldn't the Greatest among the Aposotles be there?
     
  12. Amy.G

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    Because the bible says so.
     
  13. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  14. convicted1

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    and that settles that..........:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: you tell'em Sissy.
     
  15. Scarlett O.

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    I don't think that there are going to be "shrines" anywhere to mortal man in heaven. No sinner, saved by graced, is going to be exalted there. Rewarded, yes. Enshrined, no.

    Let's just say for the sake of argument that Revelation 21:11-14 is literal and that when we go in and out of the gates of the Holy City that their will be the "Dan" gate and the "Rueben" gate and the "Simon" gate and the "Benjamin" gate and the rest of the twelve tribes. And that that foundation of the walls will have literal names of Peter, James, John....etc. written on them.

    God must have a reason for it. I can't say what it is, but I can say this. It isn't to exalt anyone or to make us all "revere" these people in heaven or to consider where their names are written to be shrines.

    There are thousands of people since the original twelve brothers who made up the 12 tribes and the founding 12 apostles who have been called, served mightily, martyred for Christ, and led countless people all over the world to salvation.

    I can think of multiple Biblical people - Paul, King David, Mary Magdelene, Martha, Moses, Joshua, Hannah, Priscilla, Aquilla, the Centurian Soldier and more whose faith and deeds were either mighty and/or great.

    Their names aren't listed in Revelation 21 and they were just as worthy recognition for the kingdom of God as those mentioned.

    So apparently, this listing of names that are to "appear" on foundational walls and gates aren't about exalting the individual person above all of the rest who will be in heaven. It's about something else.

    And since it isn't about ranking people for attention getting honor - then there is no need to bemoan the fact that Paul's name isn't mentioned either.
     
    #15 Scarlett O., Jan 28, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2012
  16. convicted1

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    Man, did you shuck this right on down to the cob or what? Very well articulated Sister. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  17. kyredneck

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    I've posted this before:

    Has anyone else noticed this similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:

    It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?

    It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

    The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

    The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

    Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:

    Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17

    Christ refers to Judas as a devil:

    Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71

    Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count as is Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.
     
  18. Jerome

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    I Cor. 15:5 "the twelve" refers to just 10 apostles [-Judas, -Thomas].
     

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