The 14 or 15 tribes of Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rubato 1, Mar 31, 2008.

  1. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
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    I don't know where to look for the answer to this question: Why do the "12" tribes of Revelation 7 not include Ephraim or Dan?
    Someone referred me to Psalm 78:9-11, but could not point me to where this event is recorded in the Bible--Is it a spiritual refusal only? Was it before the parting fo the sea? In verses 67-68, I only saw Messianic details, and no reference at all to the tribe of Dan...
    I'm sure this is where much of the 'lost tribe of Dan' legends originate, but that is not what I'm looking for in this thread...
     
  2. Linda64

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    From the Defender's KJV Bible notes by Dr. Henry M. Morris, ThD:

    Revelation 7:6

    7:6 Manasses. Note that Dan has been omitted from this list, while both Joseph and Manasseh are included. Possibly the ancient leadership of the tribe of Dan in the idolatrous apostasy of the northern kingdom had affected the spiritual characteristics of their descendants throughout the centuries, so that no Danites will be suitable candidates for this special ministry at this time (note Judges 18:1,30-31; Amos 8:14). The tribe of Ephraim had once been the acknowledged leader of the ten tribes, but this tribe also had led in the lapse into idolatry (Hosea 4:17); perhaps this partially explains why the name of Joseph replaced Ephraim in the list instead of Manasseh. Dan, however, as well as Ephraim, will have their portions in the millennial kingdom (Ezekiel 48:1).

    http://www.icr.org/index.php?module..._search_type=all&f_keyword_any=Revelation+7:6

    There are only 12 tribes. Manasseh and Ephriam were sons of Joseph.
     
  3. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
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    Thank you for that info. I will study it some.
     
  4. zrs6v4

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    to take this further since the question had been answered. here is an easy one for you vetrans of the faith.

    The 144,000 that are of the 12 tribes in israel, in Revelation.

    what are the different theories on who the 144,000 are?

    I have heard that these are the Jewish who will have a chance to accept Christ after the rapture.

    I also know that this is where the Jehovah's witness's get there annointed class. (which I don't believe)

    whats the answer?
     
  5. Palatka51

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    Dan did exhibit pagan desires earlier than the rest. They were also the last tribe to settle. This would indicate that they were very unsettled in all their ways. They could have also been the tribe that caused Israel to backslide.
    Genesis 49:16&17
    16Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
     
  6. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
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    However, it was almost as though God let them fend for themselves. The portion that fell to them was so small that there wasn't enough room for them (or at least they thought there wasn't). Was there something earlier that we know of to provoke God against them at this early stage?
    It is interesting that the wars describe battles in the lands of Naphtali and Zebulun, but doesn't often mention Dan...
    They were closest to Syria and likely the first and last to be engaged in all the wars of Ahab & sons, and closest to the pagans.
     
  7. Palatka51

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    Some of Dan's and Judah's children were the builders of the tabernacle.
    Exodus 38:21-24
    21This is the sum of the tabernacle, even of the tabernacle of testimony, as it was counted, according to the commandment of Moses, for the service of the Levites, by the hand of Ithamar, son to Aaron the priest. 22And Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, made all that the LORD commanded Moses. 23And with him was Aholiab, son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, an engraver, and a cunning workman, and an embroiderer in blue, and in purple, and in scarlet, and fine linen. 24All the gold that was occupied for the work in all the work of the holy place, even the gold of the offering, was twenty and nine talents, and seven hundred and thirty shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

    Is it possible that God was more wroth with them than the others because of their expertise for wood, metal and stone fabrication?
     
    #7 Palatka51, Mar 31, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2008
  8. Palatka51

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    A Danite was the first to be stoned under Levitical law.

    Leviticus 24:10-14
    10And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp; 11And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be showed them. 13And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

    Does this show that they were very likely to be the first to loose their identity noting also that his mother was intimate with an Egyptian?
     
  9. Palatka51

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    Then there is this in Amos 8:14

    14They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

    This begs the question, what was the manner of Beersheba?
     
  10. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
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    Wow! Palatka/ADM-'Resourceful by Nature'
     
  11. Linda64

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    Samson was from the tribe of Dan (Judges 13)
     
  12. Palatka51

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    My 76 year old dad, with whom I share Pastoral duties, preached on Judges 18 Sunday morning, where the children of Dan had hired a Levite to be their own private priest along with all the idols that they had stolen and or made. It just so happened that I was interested in this study as well.

    Blessings

    Mel
     
  13. Rubato 1

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    How old are your other dads?
     
  14. Linda64

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    The answer is in the Bible. The 144,000 are are all Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel. (Revelation 7:4-8) Theories don't come from God.
     
    #14 Linda64, Mar 31, 2008
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  15. Palatka51

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    I only have the one. What makes you ask that? Have I indicated that I have more than one?
     
  16. webdog

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    He was joking...
     
  17. zrs6v4

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    Sorry my wording wasn't to good. Is there any source that can pull this together and explain this to me. Yes every answer we need to know is in the bible. I just havent understood enough about this to explain it. So these are the tribes of the old testament or what does this mean? When I said theories I wasnt thinking and assumed that there would be different opinions. I know there is only one answer, but on here it seems everyone has a slightly different view. So I guess my real question is- Does God give us a clear answer in the bible telling us what these 12 tribes are/were and what this means? thanks-zach
     
  18. Palatka51

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    Must've went right over the old noggin. [​IMG]
    I guess that I should have worded it more like this, My dad who is 76 instead of my 76 year old dad which might imply that I have a 70 year old dad as well. Ok, now I get it. :eek:
     
    #18 Palatka51, Mar 31, 2008
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  19. Linda64

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    The 12 tribes of Israel are found in Genesis, beginning with chapter 29 with the first son of Jacob, at verse 32:

    Genesis 29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

    And then in Genesis 49, you will find prophecies concerning each of the sons of Jacob/Israel. Verse 10 is a Messianic prophecy:

    Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

    Shiloh is a term referring to "Messiah"
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    First, One needs to know the Israeli form of inhertance. There were three main parts:

    1. Family (country) leadership
    2. Family priestly leadership
    3. Double Portion

    Li Mother -- Gen 35:23-26 -- Numbers 2 ------- Revelation 7
    ne Mother -- Sons of Israel -- Tribes of Israel -- 144,000 tribes (future)

    01. Leah ----- Reuben ---------- Ruben (S) -------------- Reuben [offended father]
    02. Leah ----- Simeon ---------- Simeon (S) ------------- Simeon [offended father]
    03. Leah ----- Levi -------------- [Priests] ----------------- Levi --- [2. Priestly Leadership]
    04. Leah ----- Judah ------------ Judah (E) -------------- Judah - [1. Family Leadership]
    05. Leah ----- Issachar -------- Issachar (E) ---------- Issachar
    06. Leah ----- Zebulum -------- Zebulum (E) ----------- Zebulum
    07. Bilhah --- Dan -------------- Dan (N) -------------- [not mentioned]
    07. Bilhah --- Naphtali --------- Naphtali (N) --------- Naphtali
    09. Rachel -- Joseph ---------- [3. Double Portion] -- Joseph
    10. --------------------------------- Ephraim (W) ---------- [not mentioned]
    11. --------------------------------- Manassah (W) -------- Manassah
    12. Rachel -- Benjamin -------- Benjamin (W) --------- Benjamin
    13. Zilpah --- Gad -------------- Gad --------------------- Gad
    14. Zilpah --- Asher ------------ Asher ------------------- Asher

    Count -------- 12 ---------------- 12 ----------------------- 12


    Gen 35:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Now, when Israel dwelt in that land, Reuben went, and lay with Bilhah his fathers concubine, and it came to Israels eare. And Iaakob had twelue sonnes.

    Bye-bye inheritance :(

    Gen 34:30-31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Then Iaakob said to Simeon and Leui, Ye haue troubled me, and made me stinke among the inhabitats of the land, aswell the Canaanites, as the Perizzites, and and I being few in nomber, they shall gather theselues together against me, and slay me, and so shall I, and my house be destroied.
    31 And they answered, Shoulde hee abuse our sister as a whore?


    When the Tribes received their portions (inheritance) in the Land, Reuben, Gad, and a half-tribe of Manasseh received portions on the East Bank of Jorden;
    the other half-tribe of Manasseh received their portion on the east bank.
     

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