The 144,000 Servants of God

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Nov 27, 2003.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Why would Christians believe that the 144,000 will be an actual, limited group of human beings?

    First, is because the 'ascending angel from the east' [Revelation 7:2] who apparently held a higher authority than the 'four angels who stood on the corners of the earth' said in effect, do not destroy the earth, sea, trees, or the 144,000 human beings until their mission is completed during the Great Tribulation. These designated 'servants of God' duly noted in Revelation 7:3 will be the witnesses and/or preachers will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to a lost world during some of the judgments from the Lord in the above mentioned era of His history of humankind. Only after their mission is completed does God bring His Great Tribulation punishment on the lost world. The God who denied the angels the authority to destroy the earth, sea, trees, and sealed servants of Revelation 7:2, later in 8:7-9, through the first Trumpet Judgment and the second Trumpet blast, will destroy the earth with 'fire mingled with blood,' one 'third of the trees will be burned up, along with all the grass on the earth.' In verse eight--'one third of the seas/oceans will become bloody.'

    The number-144,000, the angels, the forbidding of the destroying of Christ's servants, the referencing of the twelve tribes of Israel and the seal and care of God on their lives is more than enough proof that He is speaking of real live people and future events.

    The result of these future saved evangelists or witness will yield up the 'great multitude' [Revelation 7:9]of Tribulation saints via their martyrdom. [7:14] Those serving the Lord before His throne in His Temple in verse 15 are also referred to in Revelation 20:4 who will be martyred in the future during this real, live Great Tribulation period of time. The mark in their foreheads or on their hands will be the number of the man, 666 as duly noted in Revelation 13:17-18.

    These martyred saints will not need the sun to light their day [7:16] because Jesus will be the Millennial King Who indeed is the Light of the world. They will reign with Christ, not one year, thirty years, one hundred and fifty years, but as God imparts to us, 1,000 years of time or the Latin meaning, a Millennium. [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7]

    Apparently, the remembrance of the antichrist, his persecution and killing of these saints will be expunged from their minds and hearts as they move into the Millennial Age. Why do I say that? Because of Revelation 7:17.

    Revelation 7:16 indicates that in this theocratic reign of Christ on the earth, people will eat food even as they did during the church age. Revelation 22:2 speaks of 'twelve manner of fruit,' plus Zechariah 14:21 indicates that the people will be able to eat the meat of the sacrificial animals during this Kingdom Age. Study the word, 'seethe therein.' Ezekiel 45:18, 23 and in other places in this book indicate that the people will offer memorial sacrifices, and afterward they will not waste the meat but will partake of it.

    The 144,000 and the 1,000 years etched into Biblical writ is not some kind of fanciful symobolism to be interpreted by each student of the Bible in a different way. Neither is it a quasi-spiritual interpretation that emaciates the true meaning of Scripture.
     
  2. Jude

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    I think that the above-view represents a lot of 'thinking' that could be spent on something else. The Book of Revelation is NOT a 'vision', per se, of the 21st century. It IS a vision, given to St John, regarding the persecution of the church in his day, and it's essential message is, "be faithful," and "fear not, I have overcome the world."
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    We are not told if God gave this vision at a one time sitting, if you will, or whether it took place over a period of days. We do know that there were different angels who approached John as he gathers this information and writes it down for our consideration. In almost each chapter we find a new phase of Jesus future Providence being opened before our spiritual eyes.

    Jude, if this has nothing to do with the future then I presume that you believe that the Lord has already taken the church to Heaven, [I Thessalonians 4:13-18] the Second Coming is already in the distant past, [Revelation 19:11] and that someone in human civilization has already experienced 'the new Heaven and the new earth.' [Revelation 21:1] Even former President Reagan had enough spiritual insight to know that the Battle of Armegeddon was included in the future unfolding plan of God for humankind. [Revelation 16:16] This battle will take place north-west of Jerusalem and just south of Bethlehem in the Plain of Jezreel.

    Jude, please enlighten me. From what you said I guess you also believe the final Judgment Day was also in some past century, or do you not believe in the doctrine of the Great White Throne Judgment at all? This reference is to be found in Revelation 19:11-15.

    In your view of things you simply defuse and summarize John's vision on Patmos as being sometime in the past. I will agree with you that the first three chapters deals with the seven churches of Asia Minor and John's guidance of their immediate spiritual failings as various churches of Christ.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    I wish for all posters health and a Happy Thanksgiving.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  5. Frank

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    Ray:
    1. Where in Revelation is there a " Battle of Armagedon." It is most likely in the same place as the invisible scripture that proclaims Jesus will reign on earth in Jerusalem for a 1000 years.
    2. The word millennium is not even in the Bible. Where do you get the idea that it exists?
    3. Jesus and his apostles never taught any such reign of which you so adamantly proclaim and attempt to defend? If it were so important, logic dictates he would have addressed this matter.

    4. This period is mentioned six times in the Bible. The six times are found only in Revelation 20.

    5. Whatever the "millennium" may be, it precedes the day of judgment. If judgment occurs at his second coming ( Hebrews 9:27,28, II Tim. 4;1,2,Rev.1:7), then, the millennium is false. Peter make s the coming of the day of the ord the time whenthe heavens will be disssolved by firre and the elements melt with fervent heat ( II Pet, 3:10-12). Paul reveals Christ will be revealed from heaven " in flaming fire" taking vengeance upon the disobedient and be " glorified in his saints." ( II Thes. 1:6-9). Men are either saints or sinners ( disobedient). This eliminates the false dichotomy that millennialist attempt to make in their application of these scriptures. In other words, " let me explain it to you." When Christ apears the SECOND TIME, it will be without sin unto SALVATION (Hebrews 9:28). When? the judgement the appointed time for all men ( Hebrews 9:27). Men will receive either good or bad at his appearing the second time in the day of the lord, the judgement day of both the saint and the disobedient ( Hebrews 9:27,28, II Cor. 5:10, II Thes. 1:6-9, II Pet. 3:10-12, John 5;28,29). Jesus divides all tombs into two categories; 1. those raised to life, or, 2. and those raised to condemnation ( John 5:28,29). Jesus declares men live eternity in one of two states: 1.Everlasting punishment,or, 2. life eternal ( Mat. 25:46). Jesus pronounces two judgments on all nations: 1. well done thou good and faithful servant, or, 2. depart from me ( Mat. 25: 23,30, 32-46;7:21,22).

    Furthermore, are the 144,000 of Revelation 14:1-3 literal, if so, then there will be more than just the 144,000 proclaimed to be in heaven ( Rev. 7:14). This would make at least 288,000. Christ never declared this teachings the number who would get to heaven. Jesus states many will not make it, as opposed to the few ( Mat. 7:13,14).

    The symbols in 20:1-9 do not reveal events tht are to follow chronologically after 19:19-21.
    Thesse verses described the casting of the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire; 20:10, tells of Satan being cast into the same place- that is, it completes the story partly told in 19:19-21 and must refer to the same time. The millennial passage is a recapitulation of things described in preceding chapters with different symbols.

    The pupose of 20:1-9 is to give a brief review of Satan's overthrow from the time his power was restrained until banished in the lake forever. The recap is appropriate here because it was Satan who did and will furnish the beast and false prophets with the power by which they operate against the truth. Christ' personal coming ENDS THE CAREER OF THESE THREE ENEMIES; THIS EVENT IS AFTER, NOT BEFORE," THE MILLENNIUM."
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I would argue that the pattern established in the book of Revelation is that John first "hears" an announcement and then turns to "see" the reality.

    You see that in Rev 1 - with Christ. And you see it again in subsequent chapters.

    Chapter 7 -- John "hears" the announcement about the 144000 - but then he "turns and sees" an unnumbered multitude that no man can number. The pattern seem to hold up.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost makes some statements with reference to the 144,000 Jewish prophets/preachers/witnesses.

    'The Sealed 144,000 From Israel:

    As long as the church is on the earth there are none saved to a special Jewish relationship. {I would say few rather than none} . . . . During the seventieth week the church must be absent, for out of the saved remnant in Israel God seals 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, according to Revelation 7:14.'

    Pentecost: 'God's purpose for Israel in the Great Tribulation is to bring about the conversion of a multitude of Jews, who will enter into the blessings of the Kingdom and experience the fulfillment of all Israel's covenants.' [Romans chapter 9]

    Berrian is saying, 'The 144,000 when entering Heaven sang a new song which no other Heavenly beings could sing. These persons, the Jewish evangelists, then are not included in the church gathering into Heaven, but rather those who died after their message was proclaimed.

    Dr. Paul Enns says in his book, "The Moody Handbook of Theology" p. 291:

    'Physical Protection' Angels will protect the 144,000 in the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-14.'

    As to the Battle of Armageddon Dr. Randall Price says in his book, "Jerusalem In Prophecy" p. 263:

    'The same believing nations, who survived the campaigns of Armageddon and passed through the "Judgmentof the Nations" in the Valley of Jehospaphat {Matt. 25:31-46 and have entered into the Millennial Kingdom, will make annual pilgrimages to the Millennial Temple to worship (Zechariah 14:16-19; see also Isaiah 60:11).

    Ray is saying, 'There will be teeming millions of people in Heaven including all saints from Genesis to the end of time. The 144,000 are only a tiny, tiny, group who will do service to the Lord during the future Great Tribulation after the saints leave this earth at the rapture.

    The word 1,000 in the Latin means, Millennimum and this is why theologians use this term rather than the numerical indication of 1,000 years. [Revelation chapter 20]
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Ray - your post shows "what" they believe but not the Bible evidence in favor of it.

    Lets take the problems with the literal 144,000 in Rev 7.

    #1. In Rev 7 you have to ignore the pattern of (first John hears, then John sees the thing announced). Clearly in Rev 7 - John actually "sees" a "great multitude".

    #2. You would need to invent some spiritual principle whereby whole tribes are saved in exact numbers of 12000 - group salvation.

    #3. You would need to ignore the fact that in Rev 21 - all the saints enter into the city via a gate - with one of names of the 12 tribes - so that in effect ALL the saints are split up and associated in some way with one of the 12 tribes.

    #4. You would need an "evangelism" model where "only Jews are being saved". This does not even work in the pre-trib rapture because even there the evangelists are saving "Whosoever will" according to scripture -- not just the Jews.

    These are just some of the problems with the view they take with Rev 7.

    If we go to Matt 23 and see if it argues for "just jews" we see the same problem.

    If we go to Romans 11 and try to get "just jews" grafted in - another problem pops up.

    In Romans 2-3:3 we have the clearest statement of relationship between salvation and the Jews vs the Gentiles.

    In any case - we differ on this one. But I think the key is to notice the points where well reasoned proof exists for a given interpretation.

    In your post above - the authors do not appear to address the myriad problems with the view they take in Rev 7.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Three places at least. One is in Chapter 6:15. It is seen again in chapter 15:13-16 where we actually find Harmeggedon and the other is clearly chapter 19.


    The text does not say Where he will reign - but Rev 20 says He will reigns for 1000 years. Literally.

    It is literally 1000 years. Rev 20:4 literally speaks of it - and says that Christ reigns for that period with the saints raised from the dead. Saints that were victorious over the beast by the way (according to the text).

    The Apostles did speak of a future time when the saints sit with Christ and judge.

    The virgin birth is mentioned less than that.

    Wrong. The judgment mentioned in Rev 14 happens while the gospel is still being preached and while both good and evil are still on the earth.

    This is also true of the judgment scene of Daniel 7.

    Paul says of those pre-second-coming judgments "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5:10

    However - the judgment scene of Rev 20 is another judgment - the text tells us that only the wicked take part in it - only those over whom the second death DOES have power. Rev 20:5

    In all those cases - the 2nd coming terminates the existence of the wicked. Which fits in perfectly with what has been said here. It only causes a problem with a 1000 year period where the wicked continue to live and to be wicked.


    The point made in Rev 14 is that a Gospel message goes out saying that the judgment time has "already come".

    In Daniel 7 we see the judgment - the court sits the books are opened and the ancient of days judges. Meanwhile - according to the chapter - the wicked continue to persecute the righteous. It is only at the completion of that judgment - that we see the Kingdom handed over to Christ.

    And that allows the event - of the 2nd coming once that is complete.

    At His coming - the "rest are destroyed by the sword that comes from His mouth" Rev 19. The wicked are terminated - as you see in 2Thess 1.

    The two resurrections of John 5 take place 1000 years appart. That is why John calls the one BEFORE the 1000 years "the first resurrection".

    It is the same one that we see in 1Thess 4. It is the resurrection of the righteous.

    The 2nd resurrection mentioned by John in Rev 20 and in John 5 happens after the 1000 years are over.

    Rev 20 shows that the event is taking place at the end of the events described in Rev 19 - which is undeniably the 2nd coming of Christ - where the saints are taken up to heaven (as we see in 1Thess 4) and "all the rest are killed by the sword that comes from His mouth".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Bob Ryan,

    You said, 'Ray - your post shows "what" they believe but not the Bible evidence in
    favor of it.

    Lets take the problems with the literal 144,000 in Rev 7.

    #1. In Rev 7 you have to ignore the pattern of (first John hears, then John
    sees the thing announced). Clearly in Rev 7 - John actually "sees" a "great
    multitude".

    Dr. Berrian says, 'No, you are wrong here. John hears nothing. Twice in verses 1 & 2 the apostle says, 'I saw four angels' and 'I saw another angel ascending from the east.' Please, be more careful in your assessment of God's words and future actions.'

    You said, '#2. You would need to invent some spiritual principle whereby whole tribes are saved in exact numbers of 12000 - group salvation.'

    Ray is saying again, 'You are wrong. The demonstrated 'spiritual principle' is found in what the Godhead is saying through His servant John. 12,000 from each tribe; read it yourself. [vss. 5-8] All twelve tribes are there starting with the Tribe of Judah, the tribe that our Lord was a part of . . . (Revelation 5:5).

    You said, '#3. You would need to ignore the fact that in Rev 21 - all the saints enter
    into the city via a gate - with one of names of the 12 tribes - so that in
    effect ALL the saints are split up and associated in some way with one of the
    12 tribes.

    Ray is saying, 'Wrong. Each of the future evangelists/preachers have already been attached to a tribe of Israel. Note {7:5-8} In the Great Tribulation they will know exactly which tribe they are a part of in His plans.'

    You said, '#4. You would need an "evangelism" model where "only Jews are being
    saved". This does not even work in the pre-trib rapture because even there
    the evangelists are saving "Whosoever will" according to scripture -- not just
    the Jews.

    Ray is saying, 'While many of these converts to Christ will be Jews, there will also be Gentiles from different nations and isles of the sea/ocean, who will be martyred for their faith in Jesus and their refusal to obey the antichrist. You are right that this message of salvation will be to the 'whosoever will' may come to Christ. Zechariah 14:9 is a lucid indication that Christ's earthly reign will stretch over the entire world. 'And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall there be one Lord and His Name one.' Hosea 13:10 says, 'I will be thy King; where is any other who may save thee in all thy cities?' Read also: Isaiah 11:12 & Isaiah 49:6 & 22.'

    You said, 'These are just some of the problems with the view they take with Rev 7.'

    Ray is saying, 'There are no problems or errors in this eschatological interpretation of Revelation chapter seven.'

    You said, 'If we go to Matt 23 and see if it argues for "just jews" we see the same problem.'

    Ray is saying, 'You may have the wrong reference, Matthew 23, but if not Jesus is saying that the Israelite nation had their opportunity to welcome the earthly Kingdom (note John 1:11) but they rejected it as a nation. The House of Israel was left to desolation. {vs. 38}

    You said, 'If we go to Romans 11 and try to get "just jews" grafted in - another problem pops up.'

    Ray is saying, 'I never said 'just Jews;' I do not know where you got that information from and placed in your mind.' When the Church Age is completed at the rapture, the Jewish nation will be grafted into Christ once again. [Romans 11:23d]

    You said, 'In Romans 2-3:3 we have the clearest statement of relationship between
    salvation and the Jews vs the Gentiles.

    Ray is saying, 'There is no respecter of persons with God.' (Romans 2:11) Jews or Gentiles can find Christ as Savior, if they open their lives to Him and follow His teachings.'

    Bob, you said, 'In any case - we differ on this one. But I think the key is to notice the points where well reasoned proof exists for a given interpretation.

    Ray is saying, 'Some of the things you said I agree with as noted above. Follow what I said and look up the Scripture that backs up Christ's future, Providential moves through human history.

    You said, 'In your post above - the authors do not appear to address the myriad
    problems with the view they take in Rev 7.'

    Dr. Berrian is saying, 'I only posted the explanation and Scripture that conflicts with your personal ideas. I did not address all of your questions because you did not give me your questions about what these doctors of the church were saying.

    I can tell that you are not familiar with much of the pre-Millennial view of Biblical interpretation. J. Dwight Pentecost has all the answers and I took a large chunk of time to read what he has said about end times events. His book, "Things to Come" from Zondervan's Publishing House is unsurpassed in connecting all the dots. I think it is even better than Dr. Ryrie or Dr. Walvoord's writings.

    Also, Isaiah 66:10-24 speaks of the earthly theocratic Kingdom complete with worship, the sabbath day (vs. 23) and memorial animal sacrifices {vs.20} in the Millennial Temple. [vs. 20]
     
  11. Downsville

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    hi
    Does everyone here think that the 12 tribes are all Jews?
     
  12. Frank

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    Downsville:
    Salvation is for all. John makes this point in Rev. 7:14;14:1. There were 12 tribes of Israel. However, salvation being for all,the number 144,000 is a reference to completeness as is the reference in 14:1-3. There are hundreds of word phrases from the Old Testament used in Revelation. The phrases and symbols were used to communciate a message that Christians can overcome all obstacles ( Rev. 2:10).
     
  13. Downsville

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    Hi Frank
    Yea, i know salvation is for all. But as i read about the 12 tribes only 2 of those tribes are whats considered to be Jews today.
     
  14. Downsville

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    Hi again Frank

    2Kgs.16
    [6] At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

    This is the 1st place in the KJV bible the word Jew is found and it says that the Jews are the tribe of Judah(chapter 17)and they are at war with the rest of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel??
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    The twelve tribes of Revelation 7:5-8 are all Jewish witnesses to the kingdom message. A large part of that message will be Jesus is coming. {the Second Coming of Christ}

    In the Kingdom Age of 1,000 years when Christ is on the earth we are told that Gentiles living in Israel will be appointed to one of the twelve tribes of Israel if they live within Israel. [Ezekiel 47:21-22]. There will be no Ark of the Covenant in the Temple because, 'The Lord is there.' These are the last four words of the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Bob said -- Lets take the problems with the literal 144,000 in Rev 7.

    #1. In Rev 7 you have to ignore the pattern of (first John hears, then John
    sees the thing announced). Clearly in Rev 7 - John actually "sees" a "great
    multitude".


    Ray said --
    In Rev 7 - when dealing with the four winds and the four angels in vs 1-3 he starts with "I saw".

    But in dealing with the 144,000 (as in the case of dealing with Christ in Rev 1) John starts in vs four with "I heard" and the "announcement" section continues on through vs 8.

    Then in Vs 9 he connects the hearing with the seeing saying "After these things I looked and behold a great multitude".

    In the same way that we see in chapter 1 vs 10 "I heard a loud voice behind me" and then in vs 12 "I turned to see the voice" and you get the description of Christ. This pattern is repeated a number of times in the book of Revelation - chapter 7 is just one example following chapter 1's introduction of that pattern.

    Bob said --
    You said, '#2. You would need to invent some spiritual principle whereby whole tribes are saved in exact numbers of 12000 - group salvation.'


    Chapter 7 is using symbolic language with exactly 12000 in each tribe. We can know this since there is no "salvation by tribal affiliation" principle in the Gospel. Rather each one must accept Christ individually. Rev 7 does not introduce a new Gospel principle - rather it makes a statement about all the tribes being complete. Possibly a reference to the 2Peter 3 idea "God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance".

    Bob said --
    You said, '#3. You would need to ignore the fact that in Rev 21 - all the saints enter
    into the city via a gate - with one of names of the 12 tribes - so that in
    effect ALL the saints are split up and associated in some way with one of the
    12 tribes.


    The point remains in Rev 21 there are 12 gates to the city of God in heaven - and to enter the New Jerusalem - the saints must enter through one of the 12 gates. Each gate is associated with one single tribe. Rev 21:12. This means there is some association between the saints and a given tribe of Israel. {Possibly relative to character, or gifts or experience etc).

    In any case - since my background is also pre-millenial 2nd coming - I am familiar with the concepts. I think the differences between us have to do with pre-trib rapture vs post-trib pre-millenial rapture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Downsville

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    Ray
    you wrote
    The twelve tribes of Revelation 7:5-8 are all Jewish witnesses to the kingdom message

    As ive shown by scripture the 10 scattered tribes are not jews.You insist they are. Can you prove this through scripture?
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    One tribe among the twelve is that of Levi. It was from this tribe that God ordained that these men should minister as priests. Thus, the Levitical Priesthood was active in O.T. times.

    In Ezekiel chapter thirty-seven every part of the land of Israel will experience faith in their Messiah and Lord. God will 'put His Spirit in them, so that they might live, and He will place them in their own land,' meaning the land of Israel. [37:14] Plus, the N.T. confirms this national and spiritual revival among the Israelites [Romans 11:26] during the Great Tribulation. [Matthew 24:21]

    During the Great Tribulation the Levitical Priesthood will be restored for service [Ezekiel 40:46] in the Temple [Ezek. 41:4]

    At the Second Coming of Christ in Revelation 19:11 Jesus will return to the earth and Jesus ' . . . said to Ezekiel-son of man, the place of My Throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever, and my holy Name, shall the House of Israel no more be defiled . . . ' [43:7]

    The strictest of Jews already have the cornerstone for the Messianic Temple, plus the instruments used by the priests are already made. These people have prepared their hearts/lives for the coming of Messiah/Lord.

    There are farmers who are trying to produce a perfect 'red heifer' so that the ashes of said animal might be used mixed with water to purify the priests bodies before entering His future and holy Temple. [Ezek. 45:2 & 4] If my memory serves me well, there are people who are presently researching the name Cohen, because it is from this family that the Levitical priests will be inducted into service when the Lord sets up His theocratic world Kingdom of God on this earth. [Zechariah 14:9,16,17; Micah 5:2] {the Ruler in Israel--the Messiah and Lord}

    Ezekiel was not shy in saying that ' . . . the Lord will be there,' [Ezek. 48:35c] and that within the 'inner court . . . . the glory of the Lord will fill the House/Temple. [Ezekiel 43:5]
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Downsville,

    You said, 'The twelve tribes of Revelation 7:5-8 are all Jewish witnesses to the kingdom message.'

    Ray is saying, 'Yes, you are right.'

    You said, 'As ive shown by scripture the 10 scattered tribes are not jews.You insist they are. Can you prove this through scripture?

    Ray is saying, 'In the O.T. the Bible says that God will regather His people to the homeland of Israel. They have already begun to return to the state of Israel. These Israelites will return as noted in the Scripture found in Ezekiel 48:2-7 & 22-27. This passage speaks of the original Twelve Tribes of Israel who will have their own designated square miles to inhabit for the 1,000 year theocratic Kingdom Age. [Revelation chapter 20 & Zechariah 14:17-18] You, for some reason, think that the 10 scattered tribes are not Jews. You claim they are tribes; no pagan nations that I know of have tribes. Both the House of Judah and the House of Israel [Ezekiel 37:16] will return to Israel and will become 'the one stick' that the prophet spoke about in verse 19.

    They will have one King. [Ezekiel 37:22 & Revelation 19:16 & Zechariah 14:9,16,17 & Micah 5:2] {the Ruler in Israel}

    There is the answer to your good question.
     
  20. Downsville

    Downsville
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    Ray
    All the scriptures you pointed out do speak of the children of Israel. Yet none of those scriptures say the 10 scattered tribes are Jews.Is there a reason, something youve been taught in whatever religion your in, that you must lump in the 10 scattered tribes as jews to make some doctrine fit neatly together? Not askin this question to be a smart alec, just curious as to why, when scripture does not say this.
     

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