The $3,000 question revisited

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by terrell, Sep 28, 2008.

  1. terrell

    terrell
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    I previously created a post titled the $3,000 question. In the post, I was trying to get advice on a next step in my doctoral studies. I was considering Trinity in Indiana and Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary. I don’t trust Trinity, so they were out. Through research, I found/heard good things about LBU. So, after much prayer, I enrolled in their DMin program with an emphasis in Leadership. I had high hopes in the program and their curriculum. Unfortunately, when I received my first three syllabi, I was greatly disappointed. Essentially, each course required reading one textbook and answering questions from the textbooks. Even the preaching course, and the exegetical theology course required only reading through the books, and only answering the end of chapter questions.

    I earned a ThD from Evangel Christian University of America, an unaccredited seminary. For every course that I took through their ThM and ThD programs, I had to read one main text book and read other books as part of independent research. I then had to write at least three papers for each course. For example, for a New Testament course, I had to write one 5-10 page paper over a word study, one 25 page review of the main text book, and an additional 50-75 page paper. I also had to write a 120 page dissertation. LBU/LBTS requires for the DMin that you complete a 100 page project.

    I guess this is just a post out of frustration because of my expectations and what actually is required. I have withdrawn from LBU/LBTS and will get back to work on writing my next book.
     
  2. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,008
    Likes Received:
    2
    Terrell Response

    Terrell,

    I understand your frustration. I would suggest that you consider one of the programs at Columbia Evangelical Seminary. For full disclosure, I am one of the faculty members/mentors there.

    Or if you have a recognized or accredited degree I suggest that you consider South African Theological Seminary (SATS) or University of South Africa (UNISA). Both have research degrees where one can write a thesis or dissertation in order to have a degree that is fully accredited in SA and is recognized here in the USA.

    Check these two out and get back to me personally if you would like to do so via PM.

    I hope this helps to alleviate some of your frustration. Remember that God never closes a door without opening a window.:laugh:

    "Stay by the stuff!"
     
  3. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    0
    I realize this is a post of frustration, and I can certainly understand. There is no reason to pay for something and not have the academic rigor for the degree to carry its own weight. I am wondering, what are you trying to accomplish? You obviously have a ThD, if you are looking for some recommendations for DMin programs, or are you trying to obtain another doctorate. If you are looking for a PhD then I would recommend Oxford Graduate School. They have had a bad reputation on this board, but I have been there and they will be accredited through TRACS, which is seemingly everyone's favorite accrediting body on this board. It provides diversity, scholarship, research, and a incredible experience. It is rather pricey though, but they do work with you through scholarships, and payment plans, etc. If you are not just wanting to continue education, then why not enroll in a certificate program at an Seminary or University. Basically, the $3000 question is: What is it you are wanting to do?
     
  4. terrell

    terrell
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    2
    What am I aiming to do?

    There are a few reasons why I am trying to get another degree. The main reason is because I have been offered more teaching opportunities at christian institutions. I have a BS with a double major in Biblical Studies and Leadership, and a Master of Fine Art in Arts Management and Leadership. Also, I am the Executive Director of a nonprofit organization. The organization is willing to pay $3,000 towards an accredited degree.

    My ThD is unaccredited. I originally got it as part of my pastoral studies (I am the pastor of a church in the city where I live). I did not originally get the degree to try to teach with it because I knew it would be limited.

    I teach art classes at a local community college and at Missouri Baptist University. My accredited MFA allows me to do this. With an accredited doctorate, I could teach something more than just art classes. I also teach at a local bible institute. The bible institute is beginning the accreditation process with ABHE and they will need at least two new full time instructors as a part of the changes that are going on. I would like to have an accredited, or at least respectable, doctorate because I have a good chance of being hired as one of the new instructors.​
     
  5. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Terrell,

    Sorry to hear about your bad experience with LBU. Have you considered Luther Rice or Liberty? Both offer accredited DMin programs online.


    Martin.
     
  6. PilgrimPastor

    PilgrimPastor
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Both Luther Rice's and Liberty's are sort of online, more modular than online, some on campus requirements, though they are very reasonable. I think 4-6 weeks total campus time for the Liberty D.Min. spread out over 3 years.
     
  7. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Liberty's DMin is 30 hours at $425.00 per credit hour. You will need a lot more than three thousand to cover that. Luther Rice is 30 hours at $235.00 per credit hour (much more reasonable). With Luther Rice part of the requirement to even be considered is to write a rather lengthy research paper and that using the ever confusing Kate Turabian format. I guess they want the applicant to know that they are serious about academics as opposed to the supposed practicality that a D.Min is supposed to bring to the candidate. Overall, considering the cost and relative good reputation of both seminaries, I'd jump through the hoop, write the paper, and go with Luther Rice.
     
  8. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Turabian is an absolute nightmare. I can't understand why there can't be a more simple formatting style. I have the older and the updated versions of the guide. Neither are worth the paper they are printed on. Worse yet every professor has his/her own understanding of it. It makes life very difficult. Well, my life anyway. :BangHead:


    ==If I was going for a DMin that is exactly what I would do. The accredited but less expensive program. Beside I don't know if student loans are realistic right now so more expensive schools might be unrealistic for many people. This economic crisis might make more schools realize the advantage of having a strong distance learning program. The college I teach at is working on offering more and more classes online because of the economic situation. We have already moved to a four day week and this semester we are offering more online classes than ever before. If a state college can do that there is no reason private Christian schools cannot. I now know that all of this "our accreditation does not allow for degrees via distance learning" is nothing but a lame excuse. Outside of ATS, most accrediting agencies have no problems with online degrees. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
     
  9. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    While in seminary Kate T. was a nightmare. Every professor and grader had their own pet peeves. I'd get used to the wants and wishes of one only to find out that wasn't right or good enough in another's class. When I graduated Kate went onto file 13. Good riddance as far as I was concerned.
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I got to mastering Kate T. At one point, I didn't need my handbook. :laugh:
     
  11. PilgrimPastor

    PilgrimPastor
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    I purchased this for use at Liberty Seminary. http://www.styleease.com/ Now, as you say, each professor has their own understanding of the format. For one the "Seminary Style" version of Turabian Style Ease is perfect, for another the "Chicago Style" version of Turabian Style Ease is perfect. For most, though, they can simply not be pleased...
     
  12. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mixed emotions

    I have very mixed emotions about this kind of thing. On the one hand, software greatly increases productivity and saves time. On the other hand, it is almost as if we are either too lazy or too ignorant to do our own citations. It could be viewed as a cheap out. The purpose of doing citations by hand is to understand the principles behind the procedures.


    Furthermore, I have never respected the professor who was so rigid and stiff as to make moot points of citation his emphasis. The use of any system of citation is open to interpretation. Even Katie Turabain was challenged by others and made adjustments in her interpretations based on the Chicago Manual. Then, there are unique situations that challenge all of us. We must not lose sight of our goal in citations—namely to give a clear, unambiguous path to our sources. How to do this systematically is not always easy and there is no consensus on the methods.

    So, the professor who makes life hard for his students by being picky on citations is usually covering for lack of substance in intellectual content by trying to enforce a rigid systematization to give an appearance of rigor and academic prowess. The truly meticulous professor debunks your argument and logical flaws, not your citations.
     
  13. mjohnson7

    mjohnson7
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paid, I think most of your post is right on target! However, do you really think using a software like StyleEase is lazy? You still have to input the sources for your research, but time is being saved in the meticulous formatting. I guess I don't understand your argument. To me, it seems like a similar argument would be for us not to use MS Word because it's too easy and go back to using manual typewriters.

    Please take the questions in the spirit intended.....I beg your forgiveness if it appears combative, that is not my intention. I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.
     
  14. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0


    ==I tend to agree. I just wish there was a set, simple, clear system for everyone. Instead we have several systems and the new 7th edition (2007) of the Turabian Manual for Writers has over 400 pages of rules, guidelines, and examples. It is the most confusing thing I have ever tried to figure out. I can never get it right. One professor says "this" is the proper way in Turabian. So I change my note and the next professor says "that" is wrong and it should be "this" way. All the while my head is about to explode. I have even had two professors disagree, in front of me, over how a certain chart should be cited. It is way too complicated.



    ==Amen to that!


    ==I have had professors who let all but the worst citation issues slide. I have had others who would throw a fit over one little mistake. I don't believe any of them were "covering for lack of substance in intellectual content". I think the problem is that some people, by their very nature, are more structured than others. To these people everything has to be right. Also many graduate level professors expect graduate students to know how to cite properly. They don't seem to understand that they often conflict each other when giving correction/instruction.

    The whole system is too confusing. I say there should be one system, that system should be clearly, simply, concisely explained in a short but direct booklet. That one system should apply to all subjects. Then there would much less confusion.

    Well, thats my opinion anyway...
     
  15. PilgrimPastor

    PilgrimPastor
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    In principal I appreciate what you are saying but I am working on my third graduate degree. I already figured out the principals behind "citations" and I want more time to focus on research, content, and application.
     
  16. PilgrimPastor

    PilgrimPastor
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    I concur on the AMEN to this statement!
     
  17. paidagogos

    paidagogos
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    No disagreement

    I don't think we are at odds here. If one is learning the art of research and writing, then he or she ought to do the citations by hand. I don't like the idea of the student using software to cover his ignorance. On the other hand, the experienced researcher/writer can save valuable time and effort by using software to automate the task much like using a word processor. However, this should come only after mastering the art. What do you think?
     
  18. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    But, when the citation process requires hours of pouring through a manual hundreds of pages long rather than actually researching the subject at hand something is wrong. I think it is called the tail wagging the dog.
     
  19. PilgrimPastor

    PilgrimPastor
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps I am missing something... What art is there to "citations????" :confused:

    Citations are used as a matter of proprietary. It is inappropriate - and in many cases illegal - to quote someone without citation. Proper citation also gives the reader valuable information for their edification / further research into the subject matter at hand.

    It seems a stretch to refer to citations as art. Well, on second thought, your right. Perhaps I will take the next cover page to a paper I write, frame it, and hang it on the wall in my office :)

    Forgive my sarcasm but something about calling citations an art strikes me as humorous... Drudgery, a Chore, a necessity... these terms seem much more appropriate...

    It seems my suggestion about Styleaze has hijacked this thread... I'll start a new one... somewhere...
     
    #19 PilgrimPastor, Oct 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2008
  20. mjohnson7

    mjohnson7
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paid, I agree with that analysis completely. Thanks for the clarification.

    I have only a Bachelors degree, but many of my courses required a great deal of research and writing....some of which I didn't enjoy completely, but I'm thankful that my profs sought to teach us those skills.

    I have a close friend in a DMin program at a prominent seminary and he shared with me that for one of their first research assignments there were students that actually turned in handwritten papers with no citation whatsoever. I was in complete shock....as was my friend.....and the prof for the course!

    I shared all that just to say....research, writing, and proper citation is something that students should be mastering (to some degree) at the undergraduate level, so that when the student reaches the graduate level, more time can be spent on genuine research than remedial preparation.

    -Matt
     

Share This Page

Loading...