The Absurdity and Deception of the Warnings in Calvinism

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Mar 4, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    1. In Calvinism, the born again elect cannot fall short of salvation on Judgment Day.

    Hence, to warn the elect that they will fall short of salvation and end up in hell if they do not obey God is for God to lie to them because in Calvinism this cannot happen.

    2. In Calvinism, the non-elect will never be born again and cannot be saved on Judgment Day.

    Hence, to warn the non-elect is deceptive because they can neither be saved in the first place, nor are they even able, according to Calvinism, to discern this would otherwise be true in the first place. Indeed, this is deceptive since it exhorts people to be faithful to a result they will never receive.

    Just ask yourself these simple questions.

    Would God warn the elect that if they do not obey Him that they will burn in hell if He knows very well this is not true and cannot happen?

    Would God warn the non-elect that if they do not obey Him that they will burn in hell when He knows very well it is not true that they even can obey him and He will certainly let them know on judgment day they were always destined to hell?

    Who are God's warnings in the NT to?
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Ben, don't you know the warnings of believers falling away are all hypothetical and the commands for all men everywhere to repent are just there for show? :cool:
     
  3. Ben Elohim

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    Yes, I know. Everything seems to be for show in Calvinism. It is something like a magician's show were everything God is doing is an illusion ---> deception from a prideful God and not one who became a humble servant of love in truth. Illusions are not God's business. that is the devil's reality. Reality is not truth the same thing as truth. Lies are reality too. God is in the business of reality of truth, not reality of illusions designed to deceive others.
     
  4. rc

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    Keep living by the law gentlemen...
    Even schoolboys know the difference between imperatives and indicatives.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    So the bible is full of hypocracy?
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    Just in case, why don't you give us some samples of the differences.
     
  7. Doubting Thomas

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    So the bible is full of hypocracy? </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, I hope you don't think I was being serious. It's an example of sarcasm.
     
  8. Doubting Thomas

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    Here's a couple of imperatives for you, rc:

    "Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the good and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22.

    It's imperative that Christians not be haughty but to fear. It's also imperative that Christians consider both the goodness and severity, since it's indicative that they are currently standing by faith. If they don't continue in the faith it will be indicative that they will have cut themselves from Christ. The indicative is contingent on obeying the imperative to continue. :cool:
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    So the bible is full of hypocracy? </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, I hope you don't think I was being serious. It's an example of sarcasm. </font>[/QUOTE]I took it as Sarcasm, and added my own to it. Wish I could better say things with the classical "jewish" slant. My sarcasm would have come across better.
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    Understood. [​IMG]
     
  11. rc

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    "The indicative is contingent on obeying the imperative to continue."

    There is no indicative in the grammer... sorry.
    You missed the whole point. Paul uses the imperative IN GRAMMER to not allow the person to have an indicative MEANING BEHIND IT. That's EXACTLY what you are trying to do DT. It does not and can not imply something you are ABLE to do but what you OUGHT to do. Therefore showing where you ARE in Christ and not what you should DO to be in HIm.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    rc;
    Do you know what your talking about?. I don't think that you do
     
  13. rc

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    Unfortunatly I know to well what I'm speaking about. I'm working on getting my Dr's in theology. The whole premise would take a book to explain to laymen why this is absurd. Fortunatly you can take 5th grade English and learn imperatives and indicatives for yourself. YOU CAN NOT TAKE an imperative and be indicative with it. Isn't that just common sense to you people? This was well destroyed in Luther's answer to the Diatribe of Erasmus. The book is "The bondage of the will". He only spent 3 pages talking about it, but is vitale to the whole understanding of the whole debate. Even a quick description of Luthers reply would be a task. My shoolboys statement was a quote from this book... hoping someone would pick up on it but unfortunatly, it looks like no one has read it ... sad.
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

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    rc;
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Right after kindergarden Huh!
     
  15. dianetavegia

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    Unfortunately you took 5th grade English! PLEASE tell me you were not home schooled!

    rc, you're a teacher who is getting their doctorate? People laugh because your spelling is so horrible! Grammar has NO e. There is no e in vital but you left out the e in fortunately. "to well" should be too well and unfortunatly also has an e, unfortunately.

    Before attacking others and implying they're less educated than you, you might want to download a spell/ grammar checker.
     
  16. rc

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    First of all, I don't have a checker, could care less, and secondly though grammar is important, typing fast tends to make you miss. 75 wpm will get you to misspelll some... ha !

    I usually have an editor corrrect my junk when it's important. This is casual and among people that I'm not trying or caring to impress. If need a job Diane I can send you some papers to correct if you wish.

    The point, I will not let go of no matter. DR. LUTHER stated the same and I stand behind these much more learned men than I.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    rc;
    My! My! and yet you don't know when you're out classed.
    Can't your third grade teachers do that.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mike
     
  18. rc

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    ILL,

    I'm holding you responsible for your untruth ILL.
    Where in protestant church history did the church call Calvinism heretical? ... still waiting? I want the proof ! Until you show me, I'm going to consider everything you say to be unverivied garbage.
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    rc;
    Your ignorance of church history wouldn't get you out of the first grade
     
  20. rc

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    I'm the one showing it... I'm the one asking you for an inkling of proof... sounds like your the first grader!

    I'm still waiting..... or did you just lie and don't want to admit it...
     

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