The "All things" of Romans 8:28

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by rlvaughn, Jan 9, 2006.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." - Romans 8:28

    What are the all things of Romans 8:28?

    Are they the things in the verses following? Some say so; for example, "The things embraced in this lesson are foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification. All things don't mean everything that is going on in the world but what God determined to do for his people."

    Are they all things that are happening in our lives? Spurgeon said, "He knows too that God is always wise, and, knowing this, he is confident that there can be no accidents, no mistakes; that nothing can occur which ought not to arise. He can say, "If I should lose all I have, it is better that I should lose than have, if God so wills: the worst calamity is the wisest and the kindest thing that could befall to me if God ordains it."

    Are the all things not "everything", but all of the things God has ordered for our good - a sort of general good? Adam Clarke wrote, "Whatever troubles, or afflictions, or persecutions may arise, God presses them into service; and they become a part of the general working, and are caused to contribute to the general good of the person who now loves God."

    This is all of which I can think. There may be other views that I have not heard.
     
  2. Benjamin

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    Thinking about Joseph and his brothers:

    (Gen 50:17) So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spoke unto him.

    (Gen 50:18) And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.

    (Gen 50:19) And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?

    (Gen 50:20) But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

    (Gen 50:21) Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spoke kindly unto them.
     
  3. TC

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    I believe that all things means just that. God uses everything that happens to us (every event, every circumstance, every pain, every joy, every victory, every defeat, ect.) to mold and make us into who he desires us to be - the image of Christ.
     
  4. ituttut

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    Yes, I believe they’re many ways to put it. I read Paul to be saying as God created all things, therefore all things work together for the good of those that love God. Christian faith, ituttut

    P.S. Any kin to a Jimmy Vaughn, born circa 1926, Dallas?
     
  5. rlvaughn

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    ituttut, as far as I know, I am not related (at least closely) to a Jimmy Vaughn who born around 1926 in Dallas. We do have a lot of Jameses in our family, but I suppose that is a common name.

    I was recently told that to interpret the "all things" of Romans 8:28 to mean all things that are happening in our lives would promote the idea that God and Satan are working together. I don't at all think that necessarily follows. But I don't see how one could deny that at the very least God allows the work of Satan and overrules it for good. See Job chapter 1.
     
  6. jw

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    Are you related to the blues muscian, Stevie Ray Vaughn? He was also a Texan I think..
    [​IMG] Sorry, this is way off topic [​IMG]
     
  7. Benjamin

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    I can’t see them working together for other than the necessity for evil to exist for there to be good which has a purpose known to Him.

    I think in truth, which is God’s nature, for good to exist evil (Satan) will exist, but God does overrule it (him) for the good. He intercedes on our behalf through the Spirit searching our hearts while allowing Satan to work for evil but through His intercession with the Spirit and the Son sitting at His right hand justifying us that “all things” through that faith-love in Him (Good) and hope gives us patience while the Spirit helps us with our infirmities and we believe all things will be good as good always defeats evil by His will. This is love for God. I also think He guides and changes our hearts through prayer and wants our hope in our prayers for that we see not in our patience of arising circumstances by believing in the good and thereby intercedes for that we see not on our behalf for the good. All things do work together for them that love God-God is Good, love of that good is a gift of God for them who ask Him.

    Sorry about my articulation, it makes sense to me though. I pray for in hope of intercession by His will for the good and believe He intercedes for us freely for us who love Him.

    (Rom 8:36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    (Rom 8:37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    (Rom 8:38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    (Rom 8:39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    .
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    I believe it to be the first definition given. The 'things' of predestination.

     
  9. ituttut

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    Yes this fits into the understanding, but I believe what we are looking for is God, and Love of which He is, trying to comprehend on God’s level. Regardless of how we perceive or word it, God loved Job, and Job loved God, and “God created all things, therefore all things work together for the good of those that love God.”

    In Job’s case the loop is complete. But in Satan’s case God loves Satan, but Satan does not love God. Unrequited love of our Just God, will be withdrawn as our God is a God of Justice and judgment, Psalms 89:14. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  10. genesis12

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    Read the rest of that passage: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" Read on:

    His purpose is for everyone of us to be saved. Once that happens, God causes all things to work together for good. We're given gifts, and ministries. We're equipped to fulfill The Great Commission. Provision is made to fill a particular mission field with the right folks for the job; the right teacher is chosen to teach a Bible study; the right pastor-teacher is called to a particular ministry. Glory!
     
  11. ituttut

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    You couldn’t be more right genesis12. In my answer were all things, which include predestination. The illustration given of Job and Satan I believe would include predestination, for that is in all things.
    I’ll take issue with “His purpose”, and “Once that happens”, everyone of us is to be "saved” statement. I don’t believe every one of us will be saved. I also don’t believe that is His purpose. If God purposed everyone to be saved, everyone would be saved, but we know that is not going to happen.

    I also don’t understand why Baptist’s cling to the “great commission”. It clearly teaches the belief of the Catholic church. One MUST repent and then be baptized for the remission of their sins. Why do we condemn this church, in rejecting what they teach, then turn around and some believe the very same thing? They believe the gospel of John the Baptist for the Jew, and that is the position of “great commission” as shown in Mark 16. I know most Baptist’s hold dear to their hearts the “great commission”, and I know some that will not accept it. The Catholic church is wrong in their understanding of accepting the “great commission” and so are the Baptist that hold it a part of their belief. How can one hold to that concept “water” baptism removing their sins? That is what the “great commission” says.

    Paul pleads with the Jew, of whom he personally persecuted to death and imprisoned, for the Jewish church of Pentecost dared to accept Jesus Christ as the “King of the Jews”. He so wanted the nation to be saved, but finally was forced to go to the Gentile as Christ appointed him to do. Paul in Hebrews 10:8-10 tells his people the Old is passing away, and remission of sins is now of the Body of Christ, ”…he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” “Great commission”, or “grace commission”? Christian faith, ituttut
     
  12. genesis12

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    Well .. I'm an Acts 9 dispensationalist. I suppose I should have chosen my words more carefully in this instance. However, when I say that it is His purpose for all of us to be saved, that's a true statement. It's not His will that any should perish. Clearly, that does not mean that all of us WILL be saved. We "cling" to "The Great Commission" as a commandment given by Jesus to Jews to "go into all the world." That does not mean that we believe that water baptism has anything to do with salvation. We simply believe that we are to send missionaries into all the world, including our own back yard. I don't think that we can toss the baby out with the bath water when reading the gospels. John's gospel is a connecting link between the Gospels and the writings of Paul. When you use the sentence structure "One MUST repent and then be baptized for the remission of their sins.", you also confuse the reader. I know what you mean, but many others won't. Touche! [​IMG]
     
  13. ituttut

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    And “two thumbs up” for you. From a distance, I thought I recognized you. Since we are face to face here, I’ll take this opportunity to tell what He has thus far taught me. I must be a slow learner for it has taken Him years and years working with me. What Love and longsuffering.

    Of course, none of us think or believe exactly the same thing. I see a difference of two at the moment. I believe Peter and John are connected with Jesus on earth from the beginning, with Paul the new kid on the block only knowing Christ in heaven. Peter built a foundation on the foundation of Jesus Christ as foretold, and it looks to be an earthly kingdom.

    Paul is told to build another foundation on the foundation of Jesus Christ, and this is not foretold, and it looks to be a heavenly kingdom.

    Thirty or so years after the death of Paul, John is allowed to tarry. John then tells us what Christ said while on earth in his Gospel. It is the same as that of Paul, but said only to His (Jesus) people, of which they did not understand, until Christ revealed to Paul what had been hidden in God from the beginning. Jesus told His Apostles they would understand the “scriptures”, that of what we know as the Old Testament. These are “earthly” things in the “kingdom” prophesied. And then later the Holy Spirit will do some explaining to them, and much of that will come from Paul. I believe what was revealed to Paul was hidden and not known until Christ Jesus explained it to Paul. Paul tells us this is his gospel, for Christ gave it to him to give to both the Gentile, and the Jew.

    The beloved Apostle is then given his own revelation from Christ in heaven, and it is to one that has tarried from the teachings of the “earthly kingdom” things of heaven and earth for the benefit of those of God’s own nation, Israel. I believe the Revelation to John is the key that starts the motor again of that “kingdom that was at hand”, and the "kingdom to come" as foretold by prophecy. Prophecy is on the road again to the Promised Land. We have been caught up to Him and are in heaven during that shown in Revelation.

    Of the “great commission” we also differ for I can’t gloss over this, as it does not fit in my belief as it did for over forty years. When reading the second mention of the “great commission” it does reinforce again the need to “spread the word”, but light is given so believers will know whom to trust, for there is a tribulation on the way. But God in his Mercy and Love had a secret no one knew about, for if any princes of the world had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory – I Corinthians 2:7-8.

    Being exposed again in more light, the “great commission” shines spotlight on Mark 16:15-18. There has to be a purpose for these references. This purpose, I believe, was for those that would enter into the “kingdom that was at hand“. As said I ignored these words of Jesus to His disciples for over 40 years, but a few years ago I was lead by the Spirit to the Berean Bible Society by way of the internet, to have explained to me a more perfect way, Acts 18:26.

    I consider myself a progressive (if there is such a thing) dispensationalist, for I first saw the light in chapter 9. I believe our growth in the gospel to be progressive, as well as the dispensations. In this way I wind-up with Paul who I’m sure was still learning when he wrote his last book, which I believe to be II Timothy. Paul was evidently brilliant, but not brilliant enough to absorb everything at once, and scripture shows God taught him over time.

    I agree with you that the “great commission” is to spread the Word in Matthew, but I personally cannot on my own overlook the second part of that same “great commission” in Mark 16:16-18. This had to be true for those to go into the “kingdom promised”. But for me today it is a non-issue for today we are to believe the “grace commission" of God given to Paul.

    I too was an Acts 9 man, then a mid Acts man, processing to an Acts 28 man. I now stand at the end of scripture of Paul, going back to see if I can understand for Paul says I had better understand. Peter also advises his group, they also had better understand the wisdom that God gave to Paul.

    Some will differ on the exact date, but Paul wrote his first letters, I and II Thessalonians, around 54 A.D. Scripture shows it took somewhere in the neighborhood of five (5) years for the Body of Christ to be understood by Paul for he first mentions, and expounds on this in I Corinthians.

    I suppose what I am saying is the “great commission” players down here were being pulled to have a new cast of characters with a new hand picked “home run slugger”, and “strike out pitcher”. This new team would be named (team grace spiritual commission), as it is not (team great earthly commission). Team grace commission jumped to “world” recognition, and became known as (Spiritual Team Christian) and is known globally as such. To me the other players are called (Earthly Team Christian). We both will be in the “kingdom of God”.

    I would welcome your witness and understanding of your place in Him. It seems we will be in the same neighborhood.

    Christian faith, Christian friend. Ituttut
     
  14. EdSutton

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    What exactly is an Acts 9 dispensationalist? I really don't know. Is there some dispensational breakdown to Acts 15, say?
    Ed
     
  15. rlvaughn

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    Hey, guys, this is a thread on Romans 8:28, not a "hyper-dispensationalist" reunion! ;) But, seriously, I would be interested in how an Acts 28 dispensationalist reconciles that position with being a Baptist. Do you all practice water baptism at all? Perhaps you can start a thread on the subject, or perhaps there is one already to which you can direct me.

    JW, I'm not related to Stevie Ray Vaughan as far as I know.

    Back to Romans 8:28. I think those who take the all things to mean only the predestination, calling, justification, and glorification in the verses following 28 are taking only a one-sided view of the context. What about the things in the preceding verses?

    The God of this Romans 8:28 promise must not be the god of natural religion. Natural man approves a religion in which man is doing what he will, while God is trying to do what He can. The God of the promise is sovereign, else He would not be able to work all things together for good. The God of the promise is immutable, else we could not know all things work together for good. The God of the promise is compassionate and benevolent, else He would not be working good. The God of the promise is determinate, else this could not be all working according to His purpose.
     
  16. jarhed

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    It is important to notice that Vs. 29 begins with "FOR"...because of. All things work together...because of the fact that we are GOD's. Now, as to the definition of "all things" I think the PRECEDING context is your definer. Vss. 26-27, which are linked with vs 29 directly discuss the machinations of prayer. 1. You and I do not know what to pray for. 2. You and I do not know how to pray PROPERLY to a Holy God! (as we ought). 3. He that searches the Hearts (Christ), also knows the mind of the Spirit. 4. He reconciles these things with the WILL of GOD...and 5. This all works for our Good. This is the amazing miracle of prayer!

    Just as a comparitive note, notice how Christ uses this term "things" also in John 14-17 when discussing the comforting and prayer answering ministry of the Holy Spirit. Also notice how I Cor. 2, when speaking of the DELIVERY of the SCRIPTURES to the heart of the spiritual man uses the word "things" at least a dozen times when discussing the ministry of the Holy Spirit here (inspiration). The Spirits two main practical funcitons in my life are to deliver my words to God, and to deliver His words to me.
     
  17. rlvaughn

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    jarhed, I think you make some good points. That verse 29 begins with the preposition "for" should key us to look for finding out why all things work together for good, rather than look for a definition of all things. It also seems rather poor exegesis to rule out the things mentioned before as addressing the "all things".
     
  18. ituttut

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    Hello EdSutton. This is my understanding of the Acts 9 dispensationalist, believing most folks hold to. When one accepts Acts 9 then moves to it from Acts 2 they become an Acts 9 dispensationalist which is also called the mid-Acts persuasion, and many refer to this as hyper-dispensationalism. So I am a hyper-dispensationalist and a Baptist Berean and beyond for I believe the gospel of Paul all the way to the end.

    We Baptist find in Acts 15 the New gospel coming to light, for it is no longer the gospel of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”, but for reasons unknown so very many Baptists take exception that another gospel is being preached to the Gentile.

    Then going forward we find the Berean in Acts 17, which of course must be a dispensationalist for they search the scriptures to prove scripture, and here again Baptists claim to be Berean, yet most distain the word “dispensationalist".

    Traveling farther into scripture we arrive at Acts 28, where some dispensationalists reside for the dispensational gospel given to Paul is better understood, for he goes to his calling, and that is to the Gentile world which covers the earth.

    Paul has been punched, chained, probably bitten, beaten, whipped, and possibly even tasted death. Paul suffered greatly for the cause of Christ, just as Jesus had told him in Acts 9. He is beat now, with Luke is at his side to care for him. But God has more for Paul to do. What better place than prison for the Holy Spirit to put the finishing touches on Paul’s dispensational gospel in order for us to understand the Church, the Body of Christ which is the Eternal Purpose of God. This is what Ephesians is about, and then on to more understanding in Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, I Timothy, and a book to his own people to bring them into the Body of Christ, the book of Hebrews. Paul was released for a short spell, and in this freedom he wrote Titus. Then back to prison writing II Timothy right before his death.

    We Baptist absorb and use these books more than any for in them we find we are Once Saved Always Saved, and are in the Body of Christ Church, which was impossible before Christ chose Paul to be our (my) very own Apostle to be “caught up to met” our savior in the air”. Later John confirms what Paul had written by quoting Jesus while on earth.

    I’m happy you asked, for to me this shows that Baptist’s have really reached the point of the Acts 9 dispensationalist. How do we know this? We do not believe water baptism is necessary for salvation as we believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to save us, with no work required. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  19. ituttut

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    Took a while to get access to posting my last post on this subject to EdSutton just now. Way past my bedtime now, and on the road early in the moring to see some shut-ins. Will be back sometimes Friday and will answer then or Saturday. Christian faith rl, ituttut
     
  20. ituttut

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    Originally posted by rlvaughn:
    Hey, guys, this is a thread on Romans 8:28, not a "hyper-dispensationalist" reunion! ;) But, seriously, I would be interested in how an Acts 28 dispensationalist reconciles that position with being a Baptist.


    Hi rl. You’ve put me on the spot, so I have to answer truthfully. I believe the question should be how can the Baptist reconcile the dispensational gospel of John the Baptist, and not be an Acts 28 dispensationalist, which begins in Acts 9.

    I see those that choose Paul’s gospel of “grace” are to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven, and this is a “heavenly” gospel.

    I see the Catholic church, Lutheran, church of Christ, and others believe the gospel of the “kingdom is at hand” of John the Baptist gospel as promised all Israel, and that gospel for them is to “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins”. This is a “dispensational” gospel to Israel, Jesus Christ while on earth broadened this out to include the whole world, and of course this is the “great commission” and the command is to “repent and be baptized for the remission of sin”. We know this is an “earthly” gospel for this is the Gospel first given to those that will inherit the earth.

    Jesus Christ’s “heavenly” dispensational gospel starts in Acts 9 (not Acts 2 the “earthly” gospel) progressing on to Acts 28, then through to Paul’s last book to the Gentile, and the Jew.

    So the logical question now is do we Baptist believe just as the Catholic and other’s that believe the Jewish dispensational of Peter that we must “repent and baptized for the remission of our sins” as presented in Acts 2?

    Or do we believe the dispensational gospel of Paul to the whole world of “believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved?

    I believe as Baptist's say they believe. And that is we are saved by the Grace of God, through faith, without works, and in our salvation we are sealed and from hence forth forever saved. Ephesians was written long after Acts 2, and after Acts 28. Paul's knowledge in Christ continues to grow. I believe Peter later writes (perhaps a couple of years after Paul's letter to the Ephesians), about the wisdom of Paul in Christ, informing to pay special attention to the writings of Paul.

    I don’t know one Baptist that believes they must put together, forming the words for their salvation of I do here declare that I “repent and am now being baptized for the remission of my sins”. I will now go forth and show I am saved by casting out devils in Jesus Christ’s name, and speak with new tongues. Then I’ll pick-up serpents, and will not be hurt when drinking deadly stuff. I will then go about healing the sick. Christian faith, ituttut
     

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