The answers to '5 Questions for Arminians'

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    A while back I posted '5 Questions for Arminians.' If you go back and read the thread- evasiveness was the key to answering the questions. Problem? There are no Biblical answers to the questions unless you become a Calvinist- so it's futility and argument. Here then, are the Biblical answers to my 5 questions (as promised)

    #1- If God elected to pass over fallen angels in offering Christ's salvation, would He be 'unloving' to pass over electing a human?

    No he would not. God is not obligated to save anyone (whether angel or human). The most oft-repeated anti-Calvinist (aka freewiller, arminian) argument used against the doctrines of grace is that God would be 'unloving' to chose some people and leave others in their sin. The problem though is that ALL deserve sin!

    Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

    It is not amazing that God wouldn't chose some- it's amazing that God doesn't damn all!

    #2- Since we may all agree that there will be a definite number of believers at the last judgement with Christ, I must ask if this number was as definite on the cross as it will be on that Day?

    Since there is no time to God (being eternal) there were just as definite amount of believers when Christ died as there will be at the end of time. Indeed, every person that dies with Christ shall live with him (2 Tim. 2:11, Romans 6:8, Romans 5:9) and every person that lives with Christ someday in heaven has died with him. To say that those in hell have also partaken in the holy blood of God is a curse and a blasphemy on that precious redeeming blood- for surely if a single drop was applied to that sinner he would be washed as clean as snow.

    #3- If election is based on foreseen faith, can any that God doesn't forsee be saved?

    The answer (if you believe in foreseen faith) is that if you say yes, God isn't omniscient, and if you say no, election is still limited. The answer of course- is that God is no respector of persons and only elects out of the good pleasure of His will.

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    If election were based on foreseen faith- God had to choose based on our choice- making us the captain of our own fates.

    #4- If Christ took all of mankind's punishment for sin on the cross, whose sins are the people in hell being punished for?

    The answer is that there would be double payment. What does God say about this form of 'justice?'

    Deuteronomy 24:16
    The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


    Every man shall pay for his own sins. there is no 'double payment' in this formula where fathers AND children are put to death for each other's sins. Sin is paid for once- by one person. Christ has stepped in for that one time payment- but by necessity, God cannot punish sinners in hell if Christ has paid for that sin already because sin would be in two places. Try to think about substitution for a moment. Was the sacrificial lamb killed to atone for the Egyptians or the Israelites? Was it a universal sacrifice- or limited to Israelites? How can our sacrificial lamb die for sin- and that sin still be held against a person? Such injustice is not from the God of the Bible but some other pagan invention.

    #5- If believers are told that we do not know how to pray without the intercession and enabling of the Holy Spirit, why do unbelievers have this ability?

    The answer is that they don't. No man can pray to God unless the Holy Spirit intermediates for him. Free willers almost blaspheme the Holy Spirit by undercutting His essential role in salvation. He woos, draws, and enables one to be willing. God the father is essential for electing, Jesus is essential for atoning- but how dare we take out the Holy Spirit and claim we may come to God of our own volition! This is blasphemy of His power! I fear for our Arminian brethren that so openly blaspheme the Spirit's power in our salvation. I could not in good conscience do it- for the Spirit has saved me!

    The answers to these questions are not clear or Biblical unless you embrace what are commonly called the doctrines of grace. Shun labels all you please- but accept the truths of scripture at any cost- and acknowledge God as the author and finisher of your faith.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    spurgeon.us
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    No he would not. God is not obligated to save anyone (whether angel or human). The most oft-repeated anti-Calvinist (aka freewiller, arminian) argument used against the doctrines of grace is that God would be 'unloving' to chose some people and leave others in their sin. The problem though is that ALL deserve sin!

    Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

    It is not amazing that God wouldn't chose some- it's amazing that God doesn't damn all! </font>[/QUOTE]I suppose you'd also like to re-establish animal sacrifice too?
    In context your quoted scripture does not seem to support you. Furthermore, Lamentations, from front to back, is man expressing his thoughts regarding God, and not God telling us why he does what he does. Are you sure you want to base a philosophy on another man's thoughts? Of course you do, you are a self proclaimed Calvinist. You love taking Old Covenant teachings and Applying them
    in the 2005th year of the New Covenant.

    Let's see your "new covenant" supporting scripture for the same question. Would God be 'unloving'? To those passed over he would certainly seem so!
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Since there is no time to God (being eternal) there were just as definite amount of believers when Christ died as there will be at the end of time. Indeed, every person that dies with Christ shall live with him (2 Tim. 2:11, Romans 6:8, Romans 5:9) and every person that lives with Christ someday in heaven has died with him. To say that those in hell have also partaken in the holy blood of God is a curse and a blasphemy on that precious redeeming blood- for surely if a single drop was applied to that sinner he would be washed as clean as snow.</font>[/QUOTE]
    Nothing to do with numbers!

    Dealing with living the Christian life avoiding sinning because we have died to sin through baptism in Christ. So just how does verse 8 deal with the question posed?

    Nothing here about numbers, so how does verse 9 support the question?
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    #3- If election is based on foreseen faith, can any that God doesn't foresee be saved?

    The answer (if you believe in foreseen faith) is that if you say yes, God isn't omniscient, and if you say no, election is still limited. The answer of course- is that God is no respecter of persons and only elects out of the good pleasure of His will.

    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    If election were based on foreseen faith- God had to choose based on our choice- making us the captain of our own fates.

    Paul has not included the Ephesians or even the Jews at this point in his introductory opening to his Ephesians letter. He is describing God's plan of Salvation and stating whom God selected beforehand to be the Apostles who would build the Church of Jesus Christ...THUS "Selective election"! Selective Predetermination!

    It is at this point that Paul includes the Ephesian believers

    Now to John.
    Notice the order "to those who believed in his name who were born (again) not from human stock or human desire, or human will but from God himself. Believe and get born (again) not from nature, but from God.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    The answer is that there would be double payment. What does God say about this form of 'justice?'

    Deuteronomy 24:16
    The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Every man shall pay for his own sins. there is no 'double payment' in this formula where fathers AND children are put to death for each other's sins. Sin is paid for once- by one person. Christ has stepped in for that one time payment- but by necessity, God cannot punish sinners in hell if Christ has paid for that sin already because sin would be in two places. Try to think about substitution for a moment. Was the sacrificial lamb killed to atone for the Egyptians or the Israelites? Was it a universal sacrifice- or limited to Israelites? How can our sacrificial lamb die for sin- and that sin still be held against a person? Such injustice is not from the God of the Bible but some other pagan invention.</font>[/QUOTE]Again you quote an OLD COVENANT (UNDER THE LAW) scripture to prove a NEW COVENANT concept.

    Under the law every man paid for his own sins. Under Grace NO MAN PAYS for his own sins, because Jesus has ALREADY PAID the penalty ONCE for ALL so that no man dies for his sins, except in those cases where death is the natural consequence of sin, but then it is only physical death and not spiritual. Under Grace, SIN is not a direct factor in man's destiny as it was under the law. Under the law no man could live a sinless life, therefore every man had to pay for sin. Under Grace, no Man dies for sinning. I am not speaking of the death of flesh, but of spirit! For the flesh "it is appointed unto man once to die then the judgement". If natural death were the end of life, there would be no judgement! No one judges the physically dead.

    To answer your question, what proof do you have that anyone is in hell? Have you been there?
    Revelation 20 says
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    The answer is that they don't. No man can pray to God unless the Holy Spirit intermediates for him. Free willers almost blaspheme the Holy Spirit by undercutting His essential role in salvation. He woos, draws, and enables one to be willing. God the father is essential for electing, Jesus is essential for atoning- but how dare we take out the Holy Spirit and claim we may come to God of our own volition! This is blasphemy of His power! I fear for our Arminian brethren that so openly blaspheme the Spirit's power in our salvation. I could not in good conscience do it- for the Spirit has saved me!</font>[/QUOTE]You might just have to prove your assertion that unbelievers don't have that privilege. "Don't have" and "Don't use" are completely different aspects of ability.

    Who are you to judge Arminian leaning brethren? They after all do speak directly to God in the same manner that you do!

    Seems to me, you neglect the scriptures dealing with the events surrounding the death of the Christ upon the cross. There is the Temple vail separating the Holy of Holies from the sanctuary that was rent from top to bottom, thus ending the PRIESTHOOD as it existed. No longer is there an Annual High Priest Atonement for Sins performed in the Holy of Holies, because the death of Jesus is the ONCE for ALL atonement for the SIN of the World! The torn vail symbolizes the NEW Covenant in which ALL mankind can come directly to God without the aid of an intercessor. No POPE, No HIGH PRIEST, No pastor needed to speak to God! The Do-it-yourself era was introduced to us at Jesus' death.

    You also neglect the truth that FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ONE GOD! Why must the Holy Spirit intermediate for GOD when the HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD? Jesus in speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well, said John 4:24. "God is spirit,and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth." FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT are ONE God, and God is Spirit! The Holy Spirit need not intervene on man's behalf, because the Holy Spirit is God. Therefore mankind, Believer and unbeliever when addressing God, do so on equal footing. The door is opened by God for all mankind to speak directly to God, be it Father, Son, or Holy Spirit!

    Hogwash Dan! There is not a believer, by any color of persuasion, who does not acknowledge God as the author and finisher of our faith!
     
  7. here now

    here now
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    Wes says:
    The torn vail symbolizes the NEW Covenant in which ALL mankind can come directly to God without the aid of an intercessor. No POPE, No HIGH PRIEST, No pastor needed to speak to God! The Do-it-yourself era was introduced to us at Jesus' death.

    You also neglect the truth that FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT are ONE GOD! Why must the Holy Spirit intermediate for GOD when the HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?


    The Bible says:
    26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    *************************************************

    The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. But they are One with different Titles, they have different roles.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    Did you notice the word "infirmities"? There are times in our lives when we are infirm and cannot get past our pain and or discomfort including anger, dismay, hopelessness, etc. It is in those instances when the Holy Spirit does intercession for us. God interceding to God on our behalf.

    However while we are "able" God listens to us without intercession, even to unbelievers who don't know the one to whom they are praying...there is no other God, so prayer to any God is heard by the only living God that exists. What He does with those prayers is not known.
     
  9. whetstone

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    Wes- it's funny to me how you can just throw the whole OT out because you don't agree with the God of the OT. He hasn't changed Wes. His dealings of justice, payment, and substitution are still the same- even though we are under a new covenant. Your ability to make scripture do jumping jacks amazes me. But I've already spoken my piece. Time to let others talk.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    I throw out nothing out. The old testament is the OLD COVENANT that never did apply to Gentiles. Unless you are a Jew, it does not Apply directly to you, and should not be misquoted to support a false doctrine. You also pick up on Paul's quotes of Old Testament scripture to make it applicable to New Covenant ideas.

    You misuse the OLD Testament text by taking it out of context, and applying the out of context text to support a doctrine that is not otherwise supportable.

    Can you give me an example from my posts where I make the scripture do "jumping jacks?
     
  11. rc

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    You also pick up on Paul's quotes of Old Testament scripture to make it applicable to New Covenant ideas

    This statement is self refuting!! If the O.T. wasn't applicable, why did Paul use it !! Silly!

    If Paul used it, obviously we can use it in the context from which Paul was refering.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    I was hoping you would ask that!

    Paul, in Romans 9,10, and 11, is explaining to the Romans, what the place of Israel is in this NEW COVENANT that now includes the Gentiles like the Romans. Therefore Paul would, out of necessity, refer to the OLD TESTAMENT which is the Israel Bible, and record of a people, to do his Explaining! A very good teaching technique, too bad you cannot see it!

    In Romans 9,10, and 11 Paul's explaination is outlined as follows: (without chapter and verse)

    He tells about the privileges of Israel

    How God has kept his promise

    How God is not unjust

    That all has been foretold in the Old Testament,

    How israel fails to see that it is God who makes us holy

    Then reiterates the testimony of Moses.

    Then how israel has no excuse

    In chapter ll Paul tells about the Remnant of Israel

    How the Jews will be restored in the future

    The fact that the Jews are still the chosen people

    then the good news of the conversion of the jews

    Then Paul ends with a Hymm to God's mercy and Wisdom.
     
  13. rc

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    No wonder why you outlined that with no verses... talk about a tap dance around the sovereignty of God!! These points don't even follow! Talk about man centered.... out of 12 points 4 have God as being the subject.. Here's a proper outline...
    THEME
    God Demonstrates His Righteousness in Jew and Gentile

    God's righteousness Established in History (Chpt 9

    God's righteousness Received only by faith (chpt 10)

    God's righteousness Revealed in Jew and Gentile (Chpt 11)

    If your subject in theology is other than God... it should tell you something... hint... (it's bad)
     
  14. whetstone

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    I think all you get is 'ology' at that point right? :D
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Lets do it again WITH SCRIPTURE!

    In Romans 9,10, and 11 Paul's explaination is outlined as follows:

    He tells about the privileges of Israel Rom 9:1-5

    How God has kept his promise Rom 9:6-13

    How God is not unjust Rom 9:14-24

    That all has been foretold in the Old Testament, Rom 9:25-33

    How israel fails to see that it is God who makes us holy Romans 10:1-4

    Then reiterates the testimony of Moses. Romans 10:5-13

    Then how israel has no excuse Romans 10:14-21

    In chapter ll Paul tells about the Remnant of Israel Romans 11:1-10

    How the Jews will be restored in the future. Romans 11:11-15

    The fact that the Jews are still the chosen people Romans 11:16-24

    then the good news of the conversion of the jews Romans 11:25-32

    Then Paul ends with a Hymm to God's mercy and Wisdom. Romans 11:33-36


    There can be NO THEO-LOGY, with anything other than THEOS.
     

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