The Antichrist - Revealed Before Or After The Rapture?

So you are now saying that there is another way to salvation than by grace?

Again this is against Biblical teaching. By grace alone can man be saved. This is the way it has ever been. All that say that Israel is saved and the nations that endure tribulation are outside the Church if the Church is removed before the great tribulation.

Now let's address the use of the word "crap". Is this a Philadelphian response? If I am in error surely one would use more brotherly words to teach and exhort.

Gentlemen, May I humbly be wrong in my studies, for your sakes. I sincerely pray that the Lord will show me where I am. However, it seems that the Word just completely opens up from beginning to end.

Jesus said that it would be as it was in Noah's day. How was it then?

Noah was harassed then when the Ark was finished (the object of the grace of God's salvation) Noah was called into it. As soon as Noah was told to go in to it, God shut the door. No more refuge of grace and all flesh died in the earth under the wrath of God. Genesis, chapters 6-8.

Lot was called out of Sodom just as the fire came and destroyed all the cities of the plain. The citizens of the city sought to do harm on Lot and the Angels. Genesis chapter 19.

In both cases few were removed before wrath was brought. In the pre-trib scenario it is as if the whole world is taken in the rapture. When in actuality few will be. Not because many will be lost but that those, that did not fall away, have been killed for their faith in Christ.

Remember Lot's wife? Many will fall away just as God is removing His Church from this world. How will this happen? Many will have been so trusting in a pre-trib rapture that they will feel as though Jesus has left them. Then in blind helplessness turn toward a false salvation in the Beast.

In both cases no one was saved after the saint was removed. Pre-tribbers believe that there will be multitudes saved after the Church is removed. However the Word tells us that none will repent.

God even puts an Angel in the air to preach the gospel but no one repents.

No one not no one will be saved out of the wrath of God.

If I have therefore placed the Word of God in association with "crap" then He will be my judge and I know just how terrible that is. Meanwhile I will accept any apologies from any one of you that thinks this is "crap." Else if in the case that this servant is not in error then the word "crap" becomes someones self judgment. raying: raying: raying: raying:

 

And in that movie were not the citizens removed into the keep to be kept safe while their saviors met the battle with fearlessness? Then Gandolf rode in on a white horse and vanquished the foes. The gates did not complete their purpose and as thus did not prevail.

Thanks for the correction and for the grace you used to do so. :thumbs:

Your Brother in Christ;

Mel

 

Sorry JD but you are absolutely WRONG on this.

There is no lexicon that I can find which translates the Greek word "pylē" as a siege engine of any type. It is what it is - a 'gate'. This passage can be seen and is so in two different ways.
1. The gate of hell not prevailing against the building of Christ's Church is that Hell's gates can not hold on to it's prisoners that Christ calls out and into Himself.

2. Is still similar in meaning but that nothing that comes from out of Hell's gates can stop the salvation of it's prisoners that they come out of it and into Christ.


What you are refering to is actaully called a "seige tower" or a "beffroy" or also spelled "belfry" which is what it was called in the middle ages.

 

oops......

 

Keep it in context, the church doesn't suffer the chastisement of the Tribulation period, one reason for the Pre trib rapture.

 

You and I are pretty much in agreement, except for the following, if I'm reading you correct.

When Jesus returns to sit up the MK only the "LIVING" (wheat/tare) are judged/separated,

the "GOATS" stay dead and are not "resurrected" to stand Judgment until the GWT.


Only at the GWT are "GOATS" resurrected to stand in Judgment along with "SHEEP". (from the MK) (Sheep and Goat Judgment)

 

First of all, I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I am saying there is another way to heaven other than grace.

Secondly, you are ignoring what the passage says. Rev. 7:9+ clearly identifies believers who died during the "great tribulation". If your response is, "Well, that can't be true because it conflicts with my understanding and that would mean people are saved contrary to grace..." then may I suggest your understanding is wrong...not scripture.

FTR, I did not use the word.

peace to youraying:

 

FTR I did not say you did. The two that did were quoted in mine responses to them. You'll note that my reply to you in post #42 was very appreciative.

 

Let me ask both you and Palatka51 a question.

Jesus ask: "can you drink of the cup I drink of"???

That cup was his death for our salvation, the same one he ask in the garden to be taken aways from him "if possible".

If being saved meant you had to literally die for Jesus's salvation as he had to die for your salvation,

would you do it???

Because Jesus has already suffer the "Chastisment" of our peace with God we only "Spiritually" crucify the "old man" or "Body of sin", we don't "literally die".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Those in the trib will "literal drink of Jesus's cup", that is "literally die" for his salvation as he literally died for their salvation.

This "death of the flesh" is the "STRIPES" from God's "ROD" (AC) of "Chastisment".

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

With the exceptions of John, all of the apostles "literally drank of Jesus cup", or were killed for their belief.

Doesn't Grace mean being saved, regardless of whether we literally/Spiritual "Drank of Jesus's cup"??

 

That makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with the conversation.

peace to youraying:

 

I respond to #41 above at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

(9 years from being and 'elder') Brother Palatka51 is mentioned both :thumbs: and :tonofbricks:

I also respond to #42 above at the same place.

 

Christ is calling people out of hell to salvation? What? I've never heard of such a thing. Do you mean that you believe people in hell get a chance to be saved?

I had a Greek prof. who was certain that Jesus, in Matt. 16, is referring to a siege tower. He told us that he had researched the word use and that it was common to refer to the towers as "gates" because they were used to breach the walls and enter the cities.

This makes perfect sense, IMHO, that the assault on the Christian Church is like the Roman army siege of a city.

Christ could have said the "hordes of Hell" cannot prevail against the church, or He could have said, "Satan and his demons coming out of hell" cannot prevail against the church, or He could have said, the world cannot prevail against the church.....but He said "the gates of Hell" shall not prevail against the church.

It doesn't make sense to me that gates leading to Hell can make an assault upon the church. How can a "gate" make an assault on the church?

It cannot, unless the "gate" is referring to a siege weapon.

peace to youraying:

 

The above states that a person literally dies during the so-called seven year trib for "his" salvation. Please provide an identity for "his".

 

Then your Greek Prof. was incorrect in his research. These towers were not 'commonly called "gates",ever. ' it was not until the mid to late middle ages the term even began to be used. Did you Greek Prof. believe the church has always existed? If so then I can understand why he went looking for such a view to accodate this position. However the church was not in existence yet and still to be built.

Secondly, we are all "under" condemnation (though not condemned yet) and thus in a very real sense - in hell/seperated from God. The scriptures declare that we are called from 'darkness' into 'light' from one place or position into another. And no, I did not say nor insinuate that people in hell have a chance to be saved after going there.

However no matter if you agree with the second or not the Greek word here is NOT for a siege engine but is SPECIFIC to a regular common sense understanding of the word 'gate'. Again, this is not any kind of position which can be born out in scripture but brought up only from ones desire to read it into the wording. "Presupposition". As I said there is NO lexicon that agrees with your... prof.

 

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? (sinners)

I'm in agreement with you.

The "gates of hell" could "correctly" be interpreted as:

Can't stay closed to keep people prisoners of sin. (hell)
Can't capture people back into hell. (OSAS)
Can't harm us "physically" unless God allows it. (Job)
Can't tempt above that we can bear.
Can't deceive.
Can't destroy the church. (body of Christ)
Can't have dominion over us.


"Can't Prevail" renders satan pretty much "helpless".

 

If it's "JESUS CUP" then who do you suppose "HIS CUP" belong too?? :jesus: :smilewinkgrin:

 

What I or you believe does not matter. What is to come does. If there is a pre-trib rapture I will be in attendance. Should there not be a pre-trib rapture, I am prepared to suffer and to be caught up in Jesus' time (not mine nor yours).

BTW Ed, I am quoting from the KJV 2nd edition on Parson's Quick Verse 7.0.

 

What you are saying is beyond confusion so I will pose a couple of questions.

1. Are you saying that in the so-called seven year trib a person earns his own salvation by dying.
2. Are you saying that in the so-called seven year trib a person dies for Jesus' salvation?

Either one is nonsense and contrary to all Scripture. If you are implying #2 above that is blasphemous.

 

Are there not those that did drink of the cup Jesus drank? All of His disciples but John were martyrs. The Saints of the Church at Jerusalem were put to heavy persecution under Saul. Later Paul suffered for the name of Christ by beheading. Fox's Book of Martyrs gives account after account of the blood of Saints being spilled for the name of Christ. Does that mean they had any less grace than we have today because the suffered? No, they had the same as we.

It is only this generation that thinks they are exempt from any of the same worldly treatment of past generations that walked more closely to Christ than we, who today are walking closer and closer to the world. :tear:

 

I agree!:tear: