The Apostasy

The teaching of 'falling away' means rapture comes from Dr. Schuyler English from year around 1950's. He saying, 'falling away' in word, 'departure' it means the departure of the saints is the rapture of the Church. Many pretrib pastors adopted Dr. English's comment on 'falling away'.

Actually, the word, 'falling away' in Greek word #646apostasia defines, depart from faith, depart from truth.

1 Timothy 4:1 explains so very clear talk about apostasy, it says, "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith." It already happened during Church history to today, even, today the signs of apostasy is increasing worst daily throughout years toward the climax peak at Christ's coming.

2 Timothy 3:1-7 tell us, in the last days, there shall be dangerous times, these are already happening right in our present time.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 tell us, when the time shall come, many shall not endure with sound doctrine, but they want to hear soft preaching in their ow lusts, many already turn away from the truth, and believing in the fables and false doctrines.

We already see the signs of apostasy.

Rapture cannot be occur till we must first see the two things must come to pass - apostasy and the revealed of false Messiah - 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

Carl,

Of course, many Christians already turn away from Pauline doctrine during Paul's time. But, Apostle Paul speaks of the last days, we shall see the signs of apostasy among us in the Church, that these are already happening right now.

Not just depart from Pauline doctrine only, also, many already depart from God's Word (from Genesis to Revelation), that anyone deny God's Word is truth.

To pretribbers:

I understand 2 Thess. 2:6-8 speak of 'he taken out of the way' speaks of Antichrist shall be removed from the midst. How do I know the word, 'he' speak of Antichrist?

The only way that we can understand of 2 Thess. 2:7, have to read start context with verse 3 thru 8, speak of 'man of sin'.


'man of sin' - vs. 3
'the son of perdition' - vs. 3
'who' - vs. 4
'himself' - vs. 4
'he' - vs. 4
'himself' - vs. 4
'he' - vs. 4
'he' - vs. 6
'his' - vs. 6
'mystery of iniquity' - vs. 7
'he' - vs. 7
'he' - vs. 7
'Wicked' -vs. 8

The context of 2 Thess. 2:3-8 focus on Antichrist.

None of the context on 2 Thess. 2:3-8 talking about the Holy Spirit.

I understand 2 Thess. 2:6-8 telling us, that Satan was holding back from being to be revealed, he is being now holding back in the bottomless pit (2 Thess. 2:6-7; Rev. 17:8; & Rev. 20:3,7).

God does not allow Satan to be revealed, because it is not yet time for Satan to be revealed.

God knows when the right time to come, then He shall allow Satan to be loosed out of the midst, then to be revealed.

Satan cannot be revealed till the apostasy become more worst first. When God sees the apostasy look much worst, then He knows when the right time to come, then He shall allow Satan to be loosed out of the way, and to be revealed, then to persecute against Christians (2 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 11:1-2; 13:6-7).

Clear, 2 Thess 2:1-8 teaching us, our gathering together cannot come till we must see the two things come to pass first. This passage cannot be pretrib. It speak of posttrib coming of Christ AFTER apostasy & the revealed of Satan.

I would like you to read http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/apostatechurch.htm

This article explains very clear about apostasy with scriptures.

Greek does not support the idea of pretrib teaching of 'falling away' means rapture. Greek tells us of 'falling away' simple means depart from the faith, & truth.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "The teaching of 'falling away' means rapture
comes from Dr. Schuyler English from year around 1950's."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible):

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there come
a departing first, and that that man of sinne
be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Maybe Dr. Schuyler English in 1950s (1950-1959)
read the Geneva Bible from the 16th century (1501-1600)?

Of course, the beloved King James Versions (KJVs)
all have "falling away" instead of
a form of "departure". The seven versions before the KJV all had some form
of "departure".

I believe the easiest explanation is that
the "departure" is from this earth
and the "falling away" is the falling
away from this earth - the pretribulation
Rapture.

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

"When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isaiah 59:19).

 

The day of Christ SHALL NOT COME (in the context) unless two things occur. A falling away AND the revelation of the man of sin. WHEN THEY COME, so will have the day.

The gathering is CONNECTED to his revelation (2 Thess.2:3) which is at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, not his "destruction" which is AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Time gap. (2 Thess.2:8) He is revealed BEFORE he is destroyed! His revelation is at least 42 months BEFORE his DESTRUCTION. (Rev.13)

His revelation is withheld by a what (the mystery of iniquity) and a who. (he who letteth)

The he who is found in Rev.17,6. It concerns a man who has not yet showed up BEFORE the LAST WORLD RULER is destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ. (Rev.19)

The what is the mystery of iniquity which CONCERNS the INCARNATION of Satan as a MAN on earth, as the mystery of godliness concerned the INCARNATION of God Almighty on earth as a man. (1 Tim.3, Isaiah 14) Both were given to PAUL.

 

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

[2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

Ed, you said:

If the Thessalonians were worried that they had missed the rapture, and the scripture you quoted is being used to comfort them that they had NOT missed the rapture, and using your theory that "falling away" is the rapture, then the verses would be saying this:

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him (Rapture) ,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ (Rapture)
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day (Rapture) will not come unless
the falling away (Rapture) comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition

So, the Rapture cannot happen until the Rapture happens... maybe I'm off here, but something seems wrong. If you say the text is used to comfort them about missing the "Second Coming" of Christ(right before Armageddon), then it would work. But to say it is to comfort them about missing the rapture, doesn't work.

Todd

 

That topic is over here:

cllick here -- http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/2597.html? -- click here

Please join us.

 

The only mysteries which doctrinally concern the body of Christ are given by Paul.

The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven concern the WORD OF THE KINGDOM, (gospel of the kingdom. (Matt.13:19, 3:2, 4:23, 10:7, 24:14) This concerns the FIRST time when the Lord came, and the PERIOD OF TIME between his "going away" and RETURN, which includes the time of Daniel's week, WHEN it is preached "again". (Matt.20,21,22,24,25)

That time of preaching STARTS at the MIDST of the week.

 

tfisher1: " ... maybe I'm off here ... "

Yep.

Here is what i'm saying

The rapture/resurrection event
is the start of the "day of Christ".
The Second Coming of Jesus to destroy the
Antichirst and the works of the Antichrist
is the end of the "day of Christ".

 

Golly, Eddy Edwards---after all these years---I thought you were a Post'er----after all these years!!

Your Southern Baptist buddy,
Blackbird

 

Sorry, i'm a PREemie

 

gee , Ed I don't see how naybody could think that.I'm with you.
Way back we had a preterist make an entry. Does'nt thier position rise or fall on the dating of the writing of the Revelation, 68A.D. or 95A.D.

 

Ed,

you say:

Your interpreting of 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is the same thing as what retired professor of Tenneesee Temple University gave lecture at the deaf bible college in the chapel while I was a student at that college. It was a long story what happened there. I had a hot water meeting with college staffs include President debate about 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

Nothing new to me, what retired professor saying on 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

I know why so many pretrib teachers, authors, scholars teaching 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord' are distinction. They saying, both are different event and time. They teach, day of Christ is Rapture before tribulation. They teach day of the Lord means tribulation.

Also, I know why they are teaching on 2 Thess. 2:2. Because I have been reasearching why do they teaching on 2 Thess. 2:2. I learned that, many pretrib teachers, authors saying, 'day of Christ' of 2 Thess. 2:2 in KJV is mistranslation, it should be correct saying, 'day of the Lord'. I went to Christian bookstore, and to comparing with different versions on 2 Thess. 2:2. Interesting, almost every different versions saying, 'day of the Lord'. Only one version says, 'day of Christ' is King James Version.

I want to telling you, I am NOT a KJV Onlyism. I do support KJV 100%.

Many pretrib teachers saying 'day of Christ' in 2 Thess. 2:2 in KJV is mistranslation.

Pretrib teachers teaching that 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord' are different event & time. I disagree with them. Both are synonymous.

I agree with KJV says 'day of Christ' of 2 Thess. 2:2, KJV have no mistake to saying, 'day of Christ'.

Obivous, 'day of Christ' is Christ's coming to gathering us together. Same as 'day of the Lord' is Lord's coming to gathering us together, & to judge the world. Both are no difference.

'Day of Christ' find in 1 Corinthians 1:8 says, "Who shall also confirm you UNTO THE END, that ye may be blameless IN the day of our LORD Jesus Christ." Paul tells us, that we must be blamless and be ready and to be endure till the end IN the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Same with 1 Cor. 1:7 tells us, that we should be eager looking forward for Christ's coming.

Philippians 1:6 -"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it UNTIL the day of Jesus Christ:" It tells us, Christ is now working in us, to built us to becoming perfect TILL the day of Christ.

Phil. 1:10 -"That ye may approve things that are excellent, that ye may be sincere and without offence TILL the day of Christ."

This verse tells us, that we must be holy living and walking godly, to be blameless TILL the day of Christ. That means we must be walking godly and be ready, we do not know when we will die or Christ comes. Rev. 3:2-3 tell us, that we ought always be ready to death or Lord comes, because we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ to judge our works.

Christians in Thessalonica, they were not rumor about tribulation. They already know that they must face tribulations first before Lord comes according to 1 Thess. 3:3-4. They were rumor about the timing of Christ's coming. Some believe Christ might come anytime soon, some think, they miss Christ's coming.

Apostle Paul told them, do not believe any rumor or teaching on the timing of Christ's coming. He told them, do not let any person deceive them of any any rumor or teaching about the timing of Christ's coming. Paul told them, day(our gathering together/coming of the Lord/day of Christ) shall NOT come till we must see come a falling away(apostasy) first.

Apostle Paul was right, that we already see the signs of apostasy are happening everywhere.

2 Thess. 2:1-3 cannot be pretrib rapture, because Paul tells us, we must see two things must to come to past - apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I don't think I have ever heard that explaination of 'falling away' until I came to this board. Thank you for a novel experience. You don't suppose that might be just a tad on the liberal side of interpretation? Falling away != caught up. I know one thing, where falling is concerned the bible agrees it is not good...

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

I quit reading science fiction when I got saved. That is not to say that reading science fiction is a sin, I simply found something more fascinating to read, i.e., the Bible. Now I see that some people interpret the Bible as though it was written by Ray Bradbury.

 

"Liberal" is very much too polite a word here, but of course this is a Baptist forum.

 

To IDENTIFY the day of Christ as the tribulation is wresting the scriptures. Paul DID NOT, in any place. Neither was Paul correcting a false idea that the day of Christ HAD COME. He corrected the falsehood that the day of Christ was AT HAND.

At hand is closeness in presence, place, or EVENT. Check the references in any King James Bible. When the passover was AT HAND, it HAD NOT come as of yet.

Some people can't get simple reading of English words.

The gathering is an event which occurs on the day of Christ.

 

Yes, but only fron Ed.