The Apostate Gospel of works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Aug 2, 2010.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Those who preach and teach "another gospel" or the gospel of justification by works, pervert, distort and misrepresent the Pauline language of "deeds of the law" and "works of the law" and as a necessary by product of that distortion, they pervert, and misrepresent the Pauline language of justification by faith.

    This perversion is founded upon two basic errors. The first error is their adoption of the contemporary Jewish perversion of Mosaic legislation/covenant as a cultural and ethnic identity (Jewishness) that separates them as the children of God from gentiles. It is this perversion that serves as the basis for the interpretation of the phrases "deeds" and "works" of the law to by snyonymous with Jewishness instead of God's original intent for Mosaic legislation, which intent is presented and defended primarily by Christ and Paul to be the most comprehensive instructor of "good" and "evil" ever given to man, so Israel may know what it means to be "holy even as God is holy." God's intent for Jewishness through observance of the law was for the whole world to know what it means to be GOD LIKE not JEWISH like. This is the first perversion and error.

    The second major error is the failure to discern that even the Jewish perversion of the Mosaic Covenant into an ethnic and cultural identity (Jewishness) instead of a God like identity has its ultimate basis in the Jewish belief that the law was given by God to the Jews alone in order for it to be PROPERLY observed according to their interpretations and such proper observation was definitive between "good" and "bad" works or "clean" and "unclean" as the final basis to be justified before God by their works above all other mankind (gentiles). Therefore, JEWISHNESS is defined by how they interprted conformity of their own lives to the law and thus the basis for final justification before God.

    God's intent for giving the law to Israel was to manifest His standard of righteousness in the most comprehenisive fashion ever given to mankind to instruct the Jew what it means to be "holy even as" God is holy and thereby reveal what sin is in comparison to what the Law comprehensively demands.

    Circumcision was the first rite experienced by the Jewish infant and was a committment to a life of law keeping or good works in the sight of God until death. The phrases "works of the law" and "deeds of the law" by original intent of the Mosaic law is representative of the conformation of your life to God's standard of righteousness. The preacher and teacher of the "accursed gospel" believes that his justification before God is by such confirmation to God's standard of righteousness manifested in his GOOD "deeds" and "works."

    No human being was or is able to DO the law of Moses which is only a instructor in the Moral law of God comprehensively applied to every facet of life.

    All who embrace justification by "good" works reject Jesus Christ, pervert the gospel and deny their own human depravity as "no flesh" can possibley be justified by works in his sight.
     
    #1 Dr. Walter, Aug 2, 2010
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  2. Dr. Walter

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    Those who believe IN good works for justification do not believe IN Jesus Christ for justification.

    They do believe IN Jesus Christ but no more than the demons believe IN Jesus Christ. They reject Jesus Christ as much as the demons reject Jesus Christ.

    They do not believe IN Jesus Christ for the right purpose or right reason. They do not believe IN Jesus Christ as "THE END" of the Law for righteousness but only as "THE BEGINNING" of the law to be fulfilled by their own life of good works.

    They do not believe IN Jesus Christ as the complete satisfaction for sin and provision for righteousness. They utterly reject the righteousness of Jesus Christ and spit upon it trampling Him under their self-righteous "good" works.

    Paul says it this way:

    Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Justification by good "works" is the ultimate pious and egotistical rejection of Jesus Christ and the cross.
     
  3. Chowmah

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    This is the way the "many' operate. Whats Gal.2(21) talking about? Lets go to the beginning of the chapter and find out.

    Galatians 2:1-3
    Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. [2] And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. [3] But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

    Yeah...the law of circumcision is being discussed. Not Gods 10 commandments.The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned at all. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. The “many” will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. Scripture below proves that this is not so.

    2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] AND the statutes, AND the ordinances, AND the law, AND the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

    Im not sure what Billy Clinton would say, but i say is means is and and means and.

    1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

    Pretty simple
     
  4. Chowmah

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    PS
    You are saved by the grace of God alone. It is a free gift. The WORD points out those people to whom this free gift is given. Its not given to those who practice iniquity (lawlessness)
     
  5. Dr. Walter

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    Circumcision was the very first rite that the infant at eight days old would experience under the law of Moses. It was the first act of SUBMITTING TO THE LAW to begin a LIFE OF LAW KEEPING. Thus it symbolizes the committment to LAW KEEPING as the means for justification before God.

    You have not given a commentary but a white wash. Paul is denying the very thing you are asserting - law keeping for justification.

    Justification is by faith IN the FINISHED LIFE OF CHRIST THAT HAS SATISFIED ALL THE LAWS DEMANDS.

    We do not submit to the Law IN ORDER TO BE justified as Christ has accomplished that FOR US. We stand justified "in Christ" under the law and are DEAD to the law.

    Our obedience to God's commandments is motivated by love not in order to be justified, not in order to enter heaven, but in order to please God, obtain blessings now and rewards in heaven - period.

    Christ nailed the WHOLE LAW - moral, ceremonial, civil to the cross - we are as dead to the Law through the body of Christ on the cross. The fully penalty of the law against us has ALREADY been satisfied by HIS DEATH for us. All the righteousness demanded by the law has been satisified by HIS LIFE for us (2 Cor. 5:21). The law has no more power over us but we are DEAD to the law through Christ (Rom. 7:1-5).

    You preach an accursed gospel of law keeping and thus not only do not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation but repudiate both His life and death as a complete satisfaction of God's righteousness FOR US - Rom. 10:1-4.

     
  6. Chowmah

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    ROMANS 3 [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY of God; [24] BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

    Whats so hard for you to understand Dr? Because we all have broken the 10 commandments, we all have sinned and come up short. So we could never be justified by the keeping of the commandments, but by faith. But do we make void the law (10 commandments) because of that faith? GOD FORBID.

    LUKE 17 [5] And the apostles said unto the Lord, INCREASE OUR FAITH. [6] And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. [7] But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? [8] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? [9] DOTH HE THANK THAT SERVANT BECAUSE HE DID THE THINGS THAT WERE COMMANDED HIM? I TROW NOT. [10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, WE ARE UNPROFITABLE SERVANTS: WE HAVE DONE THAT WHICH WAS OUR DUTY TO DO.

    Some parables are so clear. Even though we have done which was our duty to do and did the things commanded of us, we are still unprofitable servants. Filthy rags. Its only by grace through faith that we are saved. OK, so what is our duty that we must do?

    ECCLES. 12 [8] Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. [9] And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. [10] The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. [11] THE WORDS OF THE WISE are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from ONE SHEPHERD. [12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13] LET US HEAR THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    Theres the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    PSALM 119 [126] It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law. [127] Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

    It wont be long before the Lord goes to work. Those who try to make void HIS law (10 commandments) are gonna get the whatfore!
     
  7. Andre

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    No.

    We who take Paul at his word (Romans 2:6-7, Romans 8, and other places) are listening to Paul and not to tradition.

    Paul is quite clear - ultimate and final justification is based on the content of the life the believer has lived:

    God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

    And, to embrace this statement by Paul, and not invent implausible reasons for thinking that Paul is speaking hypothetically, emphatically does not deny justification by faith.

    Paul's argument is this: Those who place faith in Jesus are indeed justified by faith in the specific sense that they are given the Spirit through such an act of faith, and the Spirit will most assuredly transform that person into the kind of person who will pass the "good works" judgement at the end.
     
  8. Chowmah

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    Are you making that up Dr Walter? Or can you show me in scripture how circumcision symbolizes the committment to law keeping. Can i see that scripture please. No words of your own needed. Please just post that scripture.
     
  9. Andre

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    No again - this is not an error, Paul's argument is indeed an ethnic one. Note how, here in Ephesians 2, Paul explains that the fact that one is not justified by "works" means that citizenship in the true people of God is extended to Gentiles as well. So when Paul denies that "works justify", he is making the specific case that doing the works of the Law of Moses do not justify:

    8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit

    For those who actually take context seriously, there can be no mistake. Paul's entire argument in verse 11 and following only makes sense if he is denying that the works of the Law of Moses justify.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    Faith does not invalidate the law because faith identifies with the complete satisfaction of the Law BY CHRIST ALONE not by you or me. That is what Romans 3:21-27 is all about! NOT YOUR WORKS but HIS WORKS. Faith embraces HIS WORKS to satisfy the law completely, fully, as FINISHED.


     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    His argument includes the ethnic issue because the enthnic issue is based upon the philosophy of obeying the law for justification. What made the Jew egotistically self-righteous was not merely he was born into the family of Abraham but because the family of Abraham was given the law and his boast was in being the only people on earth who obeyed the law. It is simple to see this was the boast as spelled out by Paul in Romans 2:17-24 and again in Romans 3:27:


    17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
    18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


    Andre, where does Paul say the Jew restest?????? Does he say in being a Jew or "IN THE LAW"???

    Andre, where does the Jew boast? Does he say being a "Jew" or "in the law" as one who "KNOWEST HIS WILL and APPROVEST the things....OUT OF THE LAW.

    Their boast of being a Jew RESTED upon their boast of KNOWING and DOING the Law as a means for justification.

    Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    Andre, what more do you need to see that your interpretation is wrong! The law was their boast and Paul plainly says it!


    23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
    24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.



     
  12. Chowmah

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    Your doin it again. Lets go take a peek at what Romans 3 is talking about. Is it Gods 10 commandments. Or is it again the law of circumcsion

    Romans 3:1
    What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?


    Yup
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    Are you serious! The law Paul is speaking about is the law Christ died to pay the penalty for! Do you seriously think that Christ died only to satisfy CIRCUMICISION???????????

    Why didn't you go back to Romans 2:17? That is where his exposition of the law begins not in Romans 3:1. Circumcision is the token of a WHOLE LIFE committed to obeying the WHOLE LAW. Thus denying circumcision is denying THE WHOLE LAW as circumcision is the FIRST step of obedience and committtment to a WHOLE LIFE of LAW KEEPING.

    Jesus did not die to merely pay for violation of ONE POINT of the Law but for ALL POINTS as ALL points were violated by you and me. Faith in Christ vindicates the Law as Christ SATISFIED IT completely entirely and forever FOR US in regards to justification before God.
     
    #13 Dr. Walter, Aug 3, 2010
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  14. Chowmah

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    Your doing it again. Whats Romans 2 (17-24) talking about? Is it the law of circumscion or Gods 10 commandments

    Romans 2:24-28
    For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    I think i know. I think im smarter than a 5th grader

    I understand why you stopped at verse 24
     
  15. Chowmah

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    I did. Same thing. The post above
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    No you didn't! If you went back to Romans 2:17 you would have read the following:

    Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
    23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?


    Does that sound like he is talking about the ten commandments as well in regard to "the law" in question???? So much for your argument about context.
     
  17. Dr. Walter

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    Rom. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

    Now where do you find the commandment "thou shalt not steal"?

    Romans 2:24-29 simply adds one more law thus including both the TEN COMMANDMENTS and the CEREMONIAL Laws.

    Again, do you really believe that the law that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin (Rom. 3:23-26) is merely the law of circumcision????????????? Can you violate circumcision without violating all the law (James 2:10)????? Get serious, that line of reasoning is a joke!
     
  18. Chowmah

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    HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    HEBREWS 10 [1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    Ofcourse not. But is that what you believe? If there is no law, there is no sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. If you say you have no sin you decieve yourself.
     
  19. Dr. Walter

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    In Romans 2:17-3:8 Paul is dealing with the Jew whose boast was in keeping the moral, ceremonial and civil laws of God for justification before God.

    Rom. 2: 17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
    18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


    17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
    18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


    Rom. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?


    Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
    23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?


    Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


    The argument that Paul is refuting justication by being a certain ETHNIC people is false! The argument that Paul is refuting justification by circumcision is false!

    Paul is refuting justification by GOOD WORKS of the law, whether MORAL, or CEREMONIAL or CIVIL. He is asserting that justification before God is by faith that is IN God's provision for satisfying the WHOLE LAW by the GOOD WORKS of Jesus Christ and His death (Rom. 3:24-31) and that the Jew does not have the advantage of justification over the Gentile because they have THE LAW because "NO FLESH" can be justified by the Law and therefore ALL FLESH can only be justified by faith ALONE.


     
  20. Chowmah

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    Yes
    Read whats written there. If your gonna preach Gods big 10 you best be keeping Gods big 10. Thats easy to understand

    Also written in same verse

    Romans 2:13
    (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    You can do no song and dance around above scripture. It says what it says

    Then the Word goes on and tells us we need not be circumcsized
     
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