The Apostate Gospel of works

No. As my last post shows, desptite the wording of some translations such as the NIV (used immediately below) we can read this verse:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,

....as a statement about how Gentiles who are not born into the people governed by the Law of Moses can still "do the law".

This does not repudiate my assertion that these are Christian Gentiles.

You appeal to a very restrictive sense of "birth" here, choosing to believe that Paul is speaking about Gentiles being born with an innate sense of "the law", when it is also possible that Paul is referring to the Gentiles who are not born into a society governed by the Law of Moses.

Now the way that the NIV has been translated (as well as some other translations) clearly adopts your position on this since these translations suggest that Gentiles "instinctively" do the things of the Law (or do the things of the law "by nature"). Well, there is scholarly disagreement about how to translate this verse. From the NET Bible commentary:

 

I can tell that you one prominent theologian, NT Wright, fully "agrees" with my position here.

In fact, even though I have not stated so to this point, my views on the matter of interpreting Romans 2 are substantially informed by the views of NT Wright. The ideas I am presenting are substantially his, not mine.

So let's be clear here - there is at least one prominent New Testament scholar who would "agree" with me on all these issues.

 

No. In verse 12, Paul refers to how Gentiles who "sin" will perish without specifically being judged by the Law of Moses:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law,...


It appears that we agree that the "Law" here is the Law of Moses. But, the fact that the Gentile will not be judged by the Law of Moses does not mean he will not be subject to judgement by some other "law". And, in fact, it is clear that Paul believes that this is precisely what will happen - the Gentile will indeed be judged by something closely related to, but not exactly the same as the written code of the Law of Moses:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (Y)instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show (Z)the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, (AA)according to my gospel, (AB)God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus

Two things:

(1) It is clear that the "law" the Gentile "does" is not the Law of Moses - Paul takes great pains to state that this is a "law unto themselves" and that the Gentiles do not "have" the Law (of Moses);

(2) It is also clear that this second "law" will, despite what you claim, indeed be the standard applied to the Gentile at the coming judgement.

 

The "law" they do not "have" in verse 12 is the Law of Moses - in verse 12, Paul is saying that even though the Gentile who does not have the Law of Moses, he will still be judged. And will perish if he is found to be a sinner.

I disagree about verse 14. Here is verse 14. It rather clearly identifies a "law" that the Gentile does have - the "law unto themselves":

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

But I certainly agree that verse 14 tells us that the Gentile does not "have" the Law of Moses. And I certainly agree that v15 further amplifies the fact that the Gentile "does have" a law.

I agree, but as I have just argued in recent posts, Paul is not saying that all Gentiles will perish in verse 12. He must be read as suggesting that only those Gentiles who "sin" in the sense of being "hearers and not doers" will perish:

For all who have sinned (W)without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is (X)not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do (Y)instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

I know that verse 12 says Gentiles will perish. But I suggest that verses 13 and 14 make it clear that Paul can only mean that some Gentiles will perish. Others, in keeping with stuff in verses 6-11 will, be found to be "seeking glory, honour, and immortality, and be therefore given eternal life. That is, although there will be Gentiles who do perish as per 12, there will be those who "do the law" and will be justified (verse 13 and verse 14).

 

I believe that two reasons why so many see Romans 2 as describing a "justification by works" that is only hypothetical are these:

(1) They believe that Romans 1 to 3 is really only talking about the idea that all are sinners, so they "dismiss" any statements about people being justified by good deeds.

(2) Cognate with (1), they miss that Romans 1 to 4 has a strong implicit covenant renewal theme, and miss the allusions about how covenant renewal will mean that people "can indeed keep the law". Here is one such text from Deuteronomy that Paul quotes later in the letter (chapter 10):

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

I hope to significantly explore the implications of the covenant theme for Romans 2 later.

 

This morning, in worship, according to Andy (Stanley) the Law can do only 1 thing. Condemn.

 

Indeed. But I must emphasize this: as per my argument, verses 13 and 14 force us to read Paul as suggesting that some Gentiles (and some Jews for that matter) will indeed be justified.

Indeed. And here I must "confess" that I need to re-work some things I may have written in earlier posts. I have probably made the statement "a Jew cannot be justified by the Law of Moses", or something like it.

I should have probably said something more careful and qualified like this: If, in the time before Christ when the Law of Moses was in force, a Jew attempts to do the works of the Law of Moses in a manner which seeks to restrict justification to Jews, that Jew will not be justified. But if a Jew has faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then that Jew will indeed be justified by the works of the Law of Moses at the great coming Romans 2 judgement.

Paul's real critique of the Jew was always that they sought to limit God's family to Jews.

So yes, a Jew can indeed be justified by the Law of Moses if he does not "do it by works" - Paul's code for referring to the Jew who sees the Law as a charter of ethnic privielege.

I am sure you, and others, will not like this. Fair enough. Make your cases. But note what I am not saying: I am not saying that the Jew (who lived while the Law was in force) can be justified apart from faith in God. He has to follow Abraham - believe in God, in order to be empowered to keep the Law of Moses to the degree needed for ultimate justification.

In defence of this admittedly non-mainstream position, I appeal to this text from Romans 9:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

Note how Paul can be read as suggesting that there is indeed a sense in which the Jew would have been accorded "righteousness" if he had pursued his law - the Law of Moses - "by faith". But instead, they pursued it "by works" - in a manner that sought to limit salvation to Jews.

Here in Romans 9, Paul is clearly talking about the majority of Jews. But I see no reason to say that Paul does not believe that some Jews will indeed be judged against the Law of Moses and "pass".

These are Jews who follow the Law of Moses "by faith".

 

Well I basically agree, even though I think you may wish to rephrase the last bit. But this does not pose a problem for the position I am embracing.

I agree - see my previous post.

Indeed, no one, least of all me is suggesting that anyone is sinless. But the fact that each human has sinned does not means that person cannot be found, at the coming judgement, to have been, in Paul's words:

seeking for glory and honor and immortality,

This a massively complex issue. But one thing is clear. The person in Romans 3 is clearly the person in their "pre-conversion" state. Romans 8 makes it clear that the believer escapes the Romans 3 state. Therefore, one cannot use Romans 3 to say that people cannot be justified at the end by "good deeds".

 

HP: Andy (Stanley) needs to spend some time with King David. :thumbs:

Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 ¶ The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

 

Good point, perhaps I should have elaborated, the theme of His current series titled "Losing your religion" is about how "religions" of all flavors have attempted over the millenia to "fix" ourselves and/or curry favor with whatever "god" we worship. But yes, I am certain that Andy would agree with you that there is indeed value in honoring and meditating on the Law of God.

 

And that seems to summarize the truth of the matter.
And perhaps should best summarize this thread. It is now 30 pages long, and needs to be closed. Please feel free to start another.