The Apostate Gospel of works

The text simply nevers says this - we are never told that that the Jew boasts in obedience to the Law. Here is what Paul actually says in respect to the Jewish boast:

But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God...

You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

Let's be clear - it is patently circular argument to assert that this second text shows that the Jew is boasting in obedience to the Law. The reason, of course, is that the following makes perfect sense:

"You who boast that you are ethnically privileged by performing the works of a law that Gentiles cannot do, do you break that law and thereby dishonour God?"

This last verse is indeed open to an "ethnic" reading in respect to boasting in the Law, even though you appear to want to rule that out in advance.

 

Ive ask this a few times. How did you recieve this grace through faith?

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This above scripture explains the works we must do before we can have faith. The law was our schoolmaster. Gods 10 commandments. Did you skip school? Did you recieve your faith in some other way? Thats the works we must do that we might be justified by faith. Thats what it says. Thats what i believe.

 

I disagree - Paul is talking about salvation history over the centuries, not what happens in the life of the believer.

Paul is saying that the Law was necessary until the cross. After that, the Law is retired.

 

Thing is. This is not about David

Psalm 78:1-7
Maschil of Asaph.
Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. [2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: [3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. [4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done. [5] For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: [6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: [7] That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:

Who opened His mouth in parables? It wasnt David

 

Read it again. Use KIng James version. The way you claim makes no sense at all.

 

OK, then tell me who is the "we" which were kept under the law?

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

Just a little scriptural timeline to ponder...its the pits

PSALM 94 [11] The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.12] Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;[13] That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.

Teach man out of thy law, until pit digged for the wicked. The bottomless pit?

PSALM 119 [84] How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me? [85] The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.[86] All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.

They who are not after the law have dug pits and ALL thy commandments are faithful

PROVERBS 28 [9] He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.[10] Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.

Those who turn from hearing the law will fall into pit they themselves dug.

PSALM 7 [15] He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because THEY HAVE TRANSGRESSED THE LAWS, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.[17] Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.[18] And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.[22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Well, heres the end of the story. The DAY OF THE LORD. Those that practice transgressing the law of God will end up in the pit and scripture says in Revelation that those that keep the commandments of God (Exodus 20) and have the testimony of Jesus will end up in the Kingdom. Those in the pit will be visited after many days. A thousand years maybe?

REV.20 [1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

YUP. A thousand years. Looks like those that do not observe to keep Gods 10 commandments will be having some company in the pit. Kinda makes Saddams wormhole look rather appealing.

 

Paul is making an argument that the Law of Moses has expired.

Some will argue that Paul’s position on the Law of Moses is that it is still in force. Consider this from Galatians 3:

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Just in case there is any doubt that “law” here refers specifically to the Law of Moses, note the meaning that Paul ascribes to the word “law” a few sentences back:

What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Clearly, Paul is here using “law” to denote the set of command and prescriptions that were delivered to the Jews at Sinai – he is not talking about a “law” that is for Gentiles.

Paul would have to be a very incompetent writer if he didn't intend to suggest that the Law of Moses has now expired. The word "tutor" here is the well-known Greek word "paidagogos". And, as per the Net Bible definition, a paidagogos is

"a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood."

By the very nature of the task of the paidagogos, his job comes to an end at some point in time - when the child becomes a man. Paul would have to be very incompetent to characterise the Law as a paidagogos (to his Greek readers who knew what the term meant), and yet not expect the reader to understand that, like the real tutor, the Law "loses its job" at some point in time.

Yet we have every reason to believe that Paul is using the term "paidagogos" in the proper sense - the sense where the tutor's job comes to an end at a certain point. Just as the tutor's job ends when the boy becomes a man, the Law's job comes to an end once "faith has come" as Paul explicitly states.

And consider what Paul goes on to say:

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28(There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Note the inclusivity. If Paul has just written something whereby the Law of Moses has been affirmed as still applicable, then the Jew and the Gentile are still two distinct groups within the body - we have Jewish Christians following the Law of Moses and Gentile Christians who do not follow the Law of Moses. But the whole spirit of what Paul says here (and elsewhere) is that there are no "sub-groups" within the people of God.

How would verses 26-28 make sense specifically as a "for" (effectively a "because") conclusion to what Paul has just said about being no longer under the tutorship of the Law of Moses? It would hardly make sense if the Law of Moses were still active precisely because the Law of Moses served the purpose of demarcating the Jew as distinct from the Gentile (I will support this elsewhere). Many do not think of the Law of Moses as serving that function, but I suggest that Paul clearly does – and that is what matters. The relevant text for that argument is from the beginning of Romans 10.

Instead, these verses only make sense if the boundary marker between Jew and Gentile - the Law of Moses - has been retired.

I am going to politely suggest that the only reason such texts can be read as not indicating the expiry of the Law of Moses is to make the implicit assumption that Paul is a bad writer not in command of his argument and its terms. Thus, to believe that the Law of Moses is still in force, we need to believe the following:

1. Paul's choice of the paidagogos metaphor is misleading, since proper use of the metaphor would imply that the Law of Moses, like the tutor's job, expires.

2. Paul has been doubly incompetent in his choice of the metaphor, since his "now that faith has come" statement would be naturally seen as corresponding to the condition of the boy reaching manhood, triggering the release of the paidagogos.

3. Paul writes a very weak and contradictory conclusion in 26 - 28, since he argues that the Jew and Gentile are indistinguishable from each other in the family, yet the Jew retains this massive set of rules, festivals, and practices that they alone are to follow. This is hardly being "non-distinct" from the Gentile.

 

Again, you seem to see things that are not there.

Nowhere in Romans 1:18-20 is there any mention of the Gentile being under the Law of Moses. That is what I was saying.

 

I suggest that you are the one with the "problem" here.

And the problem is that you simply assume that because Paul critiques the Jew for hypocricy in respect to keeping the Law of Moses, that this means that Paul is also denying the necessity of good works for salvation.

You are, of course, mistaken if this is your thinking.

The issue is not with my "eyes", it is with your refusal (or inability) to recognize a circular argument. And I have already made my argument that this is what you are doing.

 

Paul does not make that argument that the law expired.

ACTS 25 [7] And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. [8] While he answered for himself, NEITHER AGAINST THE LAW OF THE JEWS, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, HAVE I OFFENDED ANY THING AT ALL.

During the time of Paul there were also many who accused Paul, saying he was not keeping the law of the Jews (which includes the sabbath). Just as it is today, nobody seems to be able to prove that.

 

Abe? Faith? Not according to the "many".

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I keep hearing you cant have faith if you are observing to keep Gods 10 commandments. Youse say they dont mix. Apples and oranges some have said. But....look what it says about honest Abe. The blessings were given WHY? Read verse 5. Yeah, its those terrible works youse guys keep talkin about. Those pesky 10 commandments.

 

Dr Walters
You called that timeline of the pit pathetic. Then went on as i wrote the words. Givin me the whatfore as if i wrote those scriptures. I can assure you i did not write those scriptures. I do understand why they would upset you as they are contrary to your beliefs. Dont take it out on me