Featured The Apostle Peter on the Second Coming of Our LORD

Evidently you feel the early church fathers twisted Scripture too let me look again:

Lets look at them:

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

let's check another:

"Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

And another:

"Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

So here we see at least three early Christian leaders who were looking forward to Christ return before the Tribulation. From around A.D. 150 to A.D. 350 they felt the Lord's imminent return would come. Yep it would seem by your thinking they twisted scripture to match what you call Darbyism before Darby was even born, so how could that happen?

 

So when Paul says the church will be caught away you believe it? When Jesus says there will be a Great Tribulation you believe it?
When Jesus through John says there will be a 1000 year reign by Christ before the resurrection of the rest of the dead (unbelievers) you believe it?
They all taught that the Church would be caught away and that the Bride would come with Christ at His second coming to set up the Kingdom you believe it? Because that is what scripture declares.

Even the early church fathers believed it to be a Pre-Trib catching away as we have seen in three threads so far. Plus the early church groups have been seen as believing it in several threads.

Maybe you are coming around to the Pre-Trib belief.

 

The Bible states that jesus shall return to get His church snatched away, we will then be glorifed, and that he will then return to earth to rule out of jerusalem, as isaiah foretold in chapter 66.

At the end of that period of time, satan will be let losse from his 1000 binding, and then the final state of new heavens and new earth...

How much more clear can that be>

 

Compelling evidence has been set before you. You refuse to be taught.
Simply stating it is false doctrine does not make it false.
You can repeat that red is blue all day long, but that won't make red blue.
Simply by you stating something to be false doesn't make it so.

 

Explain where Jesus will return to after the 1000 year reign, from your personal knowledge not Iink, Pinky ot Hockeystra.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Jesus clearly teaches here that He will reign for 1000 years.

Jesus clearly taught He would reign over Israel to His disciples,

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel"

Luke 22:30 "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The disciples understood it as an earthly Kingdom, for they asked,

Mark 10:37 "They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?"

They understood it as an earthly Kingdom

Matthew 20:20 "Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom."

Jesus made it clear in Revelation 20 that it would last 1000 years.

 

The problem is when sound concept of holding to a literal view on how to understand the bible gets overhauled by someone who now sees it as being allogorical or all symbolic!

 

no one denies Christ is in Heaven in fact Paul makes it very clear,

Romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Ephesians 1:20 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

Very simple He is in Heaven seated next the Father.

Then you need to deal with this from Paul,
Colossians 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Definitely the church will appear with Him when He comes and we will appear with Him in glory, yet another reference to the snatching away. Even though He is right now seated on the Right Hand of the Father.
At no time has Christ not been reigning or in charge of the earth. He can override satan at any time. But we are told that satan is currently,
Ephesians 2:2-3,
2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Satan is currently still the prince of the power of the air of whom Believers were formerly in.

In the middle of the Tribulation we see satan is not currently bound but in heven among the sons of God. His time to be confined to just the earth comes half way through the tribulation, for we see

Revelation 12:6-8, 6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Israel the woman is fled into the wilderness her son safely in Heaven. Michael and his angels war with satan and satan is then confined to the earth. Cast down so are you saying satan is currently cast down to the earth?

We then see sayans reaction:

Revelation 12:13-17,
13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

If the woman is Israel and as those in the time of John's Apocalyptic genre would have understood it to be Israel. When has satan attacked the remnant of Israel after being cast down to earth? When did the earth help the woman (Israel)? When did God come as the wings of eagles and fly her into the wilderness. It wasn't in A.D. 70 because all of Israel was scattered and if she was then they must have returned in 73 1/3 A.D. because we are clearly shown that "she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." 1260 days she was to be there 3 1/2 years under Gods protection. God is not going to allow her to be completely destroyed but she will return miraculously.


We see the nation Israel and those who are Saints of the Tribulation called out,

Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double."

All the tribulation saints are to come out of her. Israel will return to for these Great events as Christ the King will return shortly.

We see next the marriage ready to take place after the week long preparation of the Bride, the 7th week of Daniel fulfilled the Church having been with the Bridegroom as was the custom of the Jewish wedding again that is how we must interpret this in Apocalyptic Literature as those of that time would have understood, the Bride prepared herself at the residence of the Bridegroom during the week of the marriage festival. Until the last day of that marriage feast when the vows would be administered. Again those at the time of the writing would have understood it perfectly in this way.

the marriage having just taken place we see:

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice the army clothed in fine linen white and clean followed Him (Christ the Bridegroom), where did they follow Him too. He was already in heaven so where was He going except to the earth. And the Bride whom as we saw in verse 8 "...to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white" the people at the time of John's Apocalyptic writing would have recognized the fact that the one who was clothed "in fine linen, clean and white" would have been none other than the Bride that the church who had been with Him preparing herself for the marriage.

Israel called back now satan bound and the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years was completed. This is a different reign than now, Christ is seated on the right hand of the Father in Heaven awaiting the time of His return. Revelation 19 makes it clear HE will return to earth, because the church that is the Bride "FOLLOWS HIM!"

 

This is the first part of Peter's answer to the scoffers who have come in the last days, whom Peter believed he was in. That also means that every person in every generation should believe they are in the last days, awaiting the coming of the Lord. Peter says this in just a bit.

As judgement came to Noah it will come again to this earth. Time is no problem with God. Verse 8 simply speaks of eternity. God lives outside of time.

Though judgment will come upon all the earth as it came upon all the earth in Noah's day, God is not willing that any human should perish. He does not delight in the death of the wicked.

The day of the Lord is an interesting phrase. The OT prophets saw this time as a period of darkness and damnation culminating with their restoration. After that there would be a new heaven and new earth. But in between, there is a period of a thousand years. We know this from other scriptures.

You are right. In this passage he does not start with the rapture. He starts with the tribulation. I agree. Their are two aspects to the Second Coming: the rapture and the Second Advent. In light of all these things that are about to take place live Godly lives.

Why? Christ had not come again, no matter what your eschatological view was. The false teachers were Jews looking for the Kingdom. The Kingdom would be set up after "the Day of the Lord," a very dark period in the future of the Jews. That very dark day occurs after the rapture which is not mentioned here. His account starts after that event. It begins with "the day of the Lord," which is the beginning of the Tribulation, immediately following the rapture.

 

Then this statement "That judgment has never been revoked, period!" would make God a liar because He made a promise to Israel with no conditions an unconditional Covenant,
Isaiah 11:1-9. 1"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Israel knew and undestood the Messiah would come and reign and when He did all the Earth would live in peace including the Animals. He will Reign in Jerusalem in Nation Israel wit the 12 Tribes intact. He will rule all the world and all Believers of all times will live and reigh with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20 shows us the coming and fulfillment of this Great Promise to Israel.

Take it a little further He made an unconditional Covenant to Abraham,

Genesis 12:6 "And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the Lord, and called upon the name of the Lord."

Genesis 13:14-17,
14 "And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee."

Couldn't be the Ishmalites but God said in Genesis 17:21 "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

God didn't say if they reject My Son I will not give them the Land, nor did He say if they rebel I will not give them the Land, He said "I WILL" give them the land, He qualified it He will give them the "LAND FOREVER."

Therefore when God gave the Prophecy to Isaiah in Chapter 11 Isaiah and all of the Jews knew that Kingdom would be a literal earthly Kingdom in which Messiah would reign. This has not been fulfilled, and to say God is completely finished with Israel would mean God lied to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well as the Prophets.

 

One more Promise through Prophecy from God to Nation Israel,

Isaiah 14 1 "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,"

This has not been fulfilled Israel has never ruled and they have never "take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors" no matter how you try and twist it God has not fulfilled this Promise so if He is through with Israel then He becomes a liar.

 

So you explain where God promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob as well as the Prophets that Israel as a people and Nation would inherit the Land forever and yet you now say He is not going to keep that promise! Then explain what someone who fails to keep a promise truly is.

I didn't call God a liar, I said if people say God is through with Israel they make Him a liar. Never called Him a liar because I believe He will fulfill His promise.

Here is what I said "Then this statement "That judgment has never been revoked, period!" would make God a liar because He made a promise to Israel with no conditions an unconditional Covenant" And here "to say God is completely finished with Israel would mean God lied to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well as the Prophets"

Nope I didn't say it!

 

But that is easy, the 1000 year reign completes time for man, doesn't that constitute forever, when time ends. Plus after the 1000 years they will live in eternity on the New Earth with the New Heaven. That is simple to explain. Now your turn, you said I called God a liar and I didn't, you need to show where God isn't a liar. Because you say He is a promise breaker in saying He is through with Israel when there are promises unfulfilled for Israel made by God. If and He did make those promises and He doesn't fulfill them explain what that would make Him!